September 2010

[Honeylioness]

Angel 33 - 08/31/10 06:21 PM

David Ramsey-[/b] I just sent my parents the audiobook of his program. They are a financial mess. Let me just rant for a quick second (ok I will actually probably get nitza'd) I have 2 pathetic brothers. One is 18 months older than I am, and the other one is 7 years younger. My parents have 2 houses. One is on 2 acres and the other one is on 10 acres. Both houses are a piece of doo doo. My mom had said in the past that my older brother gets the 2 acre house and my younger brother and my cousin that they are raising (cousin is 14 and my parents have had guardianship since he was about 4 months old) will split the 10 acre property when they die. I get a small % of their life insurance and nothing else because I don't need it since I married a "rich" man. Well, over the years my brothers have used my parents for their own personal banks. My mom has had my dad cash out his 401K about 3 times to bail my piece of doo doo younger brother out of jail.

Anyway, my parents are REALLY hurting financially. They live paycheck to paycheck and have nothing to show for their years of hard work because they can't say no to my brothers. My mom got a very nice offer of $20K from an uncle to buy the 2 acre property. I say it is generous because it seriously is a piece of crap. The sewer is not up to code, the house is falling in..etc. Anyway, my mom called me this morning all upset because now my brothers are mad at her and fighting because she is selling THEIR inheritance. WT_?!?! IMHO they already SPENT their "inheritance" by always getting money from my parents and not paying it back. I told my mom to sell whatever they want because they worked hard for it and do not OWE us an inheritance. It is THEIR stuff and to just sell everything and retire and enjoy their golden years. So I am sure my brothers will be mad at me. Older brother already is because I wouldn't give him $1700 to file for bankruptcy for the 2nd time and now I told my parents to sell HIS INHERITANCE!!!

I KNOW that when the time comes, they won't take care of mom and dad they will expect me too because I married a "rich" man, yet they are the ones with their hand constantly out. We all had the same opportunities in life and THEY chose to be losers.

Ugh. Am I wrong for not feeling sorry for them? Am I wrong to encourage my parents to sell the property and use the money for themselves?

End of Rant!


sapphire12 - 09/01/10 09:27 AM

Angel [/b]-- kudos to you. You told your parents the right thing. Your brothers clearly don't respect money and as such would lose any money just as quickly as it comes to them.


dakota4600 - 09/01/10 11:27 AM

Angel33- [/b]While my sibling and my DH’s sibling are both still relying on our parents for some support, they aren’t as bad as your brothers sound. Our siblings are at least trying to make it on their own. My SIL just moved back in with DH’s parents for a month or so while she finds a new place. (She always has drama surrounding her and supposedly had a new apartment lined up and found out the day before she was going to move that it had been rented to someone else.) My brother actually returned my parents car to them last night after “borrowing” one of their cars for over a year. (His wife’s grandparents gave them their second car since they don’t use it.)

DH & I just shake our heads and wonder how our siblings are so different from us. I don’t think you are wrong at all to tell your parents to do what they want with their property and money, an inheritance isn’t a right. In fact I loved the bumper sticker my grandpa had on his Cadillac, “We’re out spending our children’s inheritance.” The money they earned should be used as they see fit during their lives and if something is left over fine, if not oh well.


dianartemis - 09/01/10 12:10 PM

Ugh. Am I wrong for not feeling sorry for them? Am I wrong to encourage my parents to sell the property and use the money for themselves?

Angel - Um, no. You're frustrated that your two DB are leeches complete with anti-coagulant and anethestic saliva, but no nerves to their stomach telling them to stop sucking. IMHO, your DPs are finally applying soap to remove them.

Edit: Sorry if that was graphically rude, but I know some people like this and their attitude just rubbed me the wrong way. They weren't family and never made it to friends, I had gotten stuck in the room with them during one of their tantrums when DOM/DOD said no.


Honeylioness - 09/01/10 01:14 PM

Angel - [/b]I thought and I thought until my thinker was sore about how to say this in a kinder more constructive way to your brothers - but in the end kept coming back to a verbal kick in the A$$ for them both.

Guess what boys? Your parents busted their backsides to have a cushion for their retirement and you in your self centered immature fashion have robbed them of that peace of mind. They did not HAVE to take in another child to raise - they chose to. And that child is only 14 so of course they will pay for things. However YOU are adults - at least in theory.

What your parents' "OWED" you was shelter, food, medical care, clothing and an education until you were 18. At that time you are a legal adult - you can vote, drink, get married and die for your country. Anything they may do above and beyond should be regarded as a "GIFT" not a "RIGHT". They do not owe you anything. Not money, not housing and not a guaranteed inheritance. And by the sounds of it you wouldn't suddenly become responsible adults if you DID get the property. You would trash it's value and sell it for the first offer that came along just to appease the next adolescent impulse you had.

Mom and Dad need to present a united front to these leeches and just tell them that the Parent's Bank is now closed. Out of Business. That what they choose to do with THEIR money and property is no longer open for family discussion or input. And by the way boys ... where is the inheritance you are building for YOUR children hmmm??? As I thought ... non existant.

And in my opinion anyone who has filed for bankruptcy TWICE does not get another chance - obviously he learned nothing the first time. Figure it out or sink - those are your only two choices. If your parents refuse to fence off the "Money Tree" then I am sorry - you will need to place distance on this subject and refuse to engage in conversations about how bad off they are while they still enable their sons to remain emotional and financial infants instead of weaning off the parental teet. H3LL - if Dakota's 2yo can manage to practice some basic self control ... so can your brothers

[Honeylioness]

MittenKitten - 09/10/10 08:46 AM

Question of the week (QOTW):[/b] How have you changed how you view money? How has this affected your relationships with family and/or friends?

Challenge of the Week (COTW): Start a new healthy saving or spending habit. Be it put a dollar in a jar every day, walking instead of driving to a corner store (if you have them anymore.) Saving the change and actually getting it to the bank...


MuttleynFelix - 09/10/10 09:24 AM

QOTW -[/b] Before I started this journey, I looked at money as something that was always going to be there and not something to really worry about. When I first started this journey, I think I looked at money as the enemy. Now I look at money as means to an end. I try to avoid spending it, but I'm not going to fight about it. I think we have a good equilibrium right now.


Sheila in Cali - 09/10/10 11:10 AM

QOTW:[/b] My view on money has drastically changed and I have found that the more comfortable I was in talking about money issues the more comfortable those around me became. I don't talk money 24/7 but my BFF and my sister are now pretty frugal. My sister had a bigger change to make. But she has stopped dropping cash like it's going out of style (she could afford it but was still spending unnecessarily). We have more friends over for dinner or go to their house instead of eating at a restaurant. We don't shop much at all- my sister and I will got school clothes with her 30% off coupon but otherwise the most shopping we normally do is at Aldi. I think once you take the stigma of saying "I am on a budget" away people will learn to start sticking to said budget and being more open about it all. Maybe they will have less desire to keep up with the neighbors if they realize the neighbors are on a budget too.


poetesse86 - 09/10/10 07:35 PM

QOTW [/b]- Well, I've always viewed money as a luxury. I grew up with practically nothing and although I've worked hard for all I've gotten I ended up going overboard. I had it my head that I could never have certain things growing up, so I deserved them as an adult. DH really didn't help matters either because he has no financial self control. Now I view money more as a tool than anything else. It's there for me to pay my bills, buy my food, and put clothes on my back and I'll view it that way until I pay off all of my debt. This has an affect on mine and DH's relationship in that he still doesn't have any self control and he unfortunately has a few very expensive habits (his gas guzzling truck and cigarettes), so pretty much 50% of our arguments are about money (the other 50% are about his mother, but that's a whole nother ball game) and how I think he spends too much on stuff he doesn't need and he thinks I'm being ridiculous. As for friends, most of them get peeved at me because I won't go out to eat, or go to the mall, or a movie, etc. since I'm worried about my debt payments.

COTW - I think I'm going to make sure I don't make any extra trips anywhere. Plan my trips where I can do everything while I'm already out. I'm terrible about forgetting something until I'm already at home and then having to go back into town. I would save sooo much gas that way.


SES_Books - 09/11/10 05:25 PM[/b]

Question of the week (QOTW): How have you changed how you view money? How has this affected your relationships with family and/or friends?

REALLY EXCELLENT QUESTION!!!

I was raised by children of the Great Depression. It is a large family with many storytellers. As a child I attended MANY family gatherings, there were always family stories set in the deep depression and dust bowl years of Western Kansas. Frugality was an accepted and expected condition. My grandparents never owned a car. When they left the farm to go town the horse and wagon was good enough. When you needed a needle and there wasn't one in the pin cushion, you carefully cleaned the cracks of the wood floor to find one or did without. Things were repurposed all the time. This training influenced my parents a great deal. Being teachers right after WWII their income was never great. My sister and I were taught to be careful with what little we had. We really evaluated our wants, after it was discussed extensively and if it was "worthwhile" after we had saved half of the cost our parents would help with the other half. Having to save for our half took so much effort we quickly decided what was a real want or just a whim. I also have family members who think thee express purpose of money, anyone's money, is for them to spend as quickly as possible. I guess it is helpful to have a negative example so close to hand. No matter what is said they never seem to learn. sometimes I worry about them. On the other hand, my DNiece can make a penny scream! I will never forget the time she was in high school and KCgal gave her some money for clothes and told her "this is for NEW clothes--not second hand" --not something you hear most mothers complain about. I don't remember what the final outcome was.

As with many, being young equals being stupid. I did so much that I wish i hadn't now. I so admire our young posters here who are getting their act together now. I eventually came back to my teachings. I followed a pretty mindful attitude about money--savings, retirement, bills then fun. But I spent way more than i needed to. I thought "I am saving, so I can do whatever with the rest" I have finally come to the point in my life that I realize I really don't really need "stuff". My main concern now is that I may be too cautious and not taking enough risk with my investments.

I still try to learn more about the financial world and my investments. Standing still never causes progress. I have to leave some of my fears behind and step forward.


kcgaloz - 09/11/10 07:21 PM

Question of the week (QOTW):

[/b] How have you changed how you view money? How has this affected your relationships with family and/or friends?[/quote]

I buy many of DGD clothes at garage sales or consignment sales. I could buy her all new stuff buy why when I can buy her many outfits for 50 cents or a $1.00. The ones I buy look brand new. She will out grow them in a couple of months. Now DD friends are starting to have babies and they see the cute outfits I have gotten DGD and they have asked her if they can adopt me. She just laughs.

Now DD has started going to consignments sales with a list of things she wants. She could buy everything new but wants to use her money on other areas of her life.

Some of my friends thought I was crazy to get "used" clothes for DGD. After I showed them what I purchased for next to nothing they are impressed.

DSIL had never heard of garage sales. He was taught to buy top of the line. He just chalked it up to crazy MIL until I brought him a shop vac , rakes, shovels, drill and other man toys. I told him I thought he might be able to use the items.


moneysquirrel - 09/11/10 11:00 PM

QOTW:[/b] I also was raised by parents who grew up shortly after the depression and lived through the rationing of WWII. We never lacked for the essentials and never realized that we didn't have what others had. My parents worked hard and budgeted for items needed. Credit card usage when was available was used wisely. My DOM and an aunt both worked in credit departments of stores (as I did during college) and we learned then that some people had different ideas about credit and the embarrassment they felt as they couldn't get something that was needed because their credit was denied. I frequently witnessed individuals melt down on Christmas Eve when they could get the last minute toy/gift because they were overextended. Decided early on that I would never put myself and my family through that. I was always a saver as a child and those early patterns have stayed with me. Have I bought things unwisely? Of course I have but I continue to learn from my mistakes. As a teacher my salary was lower than most people (I am sure that many of our younger posters are making more just out of college then I am after 30+ years of teaching) but I can live within my numbers and put some away for savings and fun.


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/11/10 11:48 PM

QOTW,[/b] I grew up in the same environment as SES_, moneysquirrel. Everything was made by hand. My parents were farmers until I was six or seven. Once off the farm, we still made nearly everything ourselves. My mother always worked outside the house as she (and my DOD) had gone to Wayne State for what they then called "Commercial." Through the evenings, she sewed, canned, baked, etc. They were careful with money, both were little kids during the Great Depression.

Like moneysquirrel, SES_ said, credit was rarely used (the "layaway" plan was extremely popular), and paying on "time" often meant giving small payments and only when complete, was the cherished item taken home. Credit debt was whispered about behind closed doors, as was divorce and unemployment, as those were topics too awful for children's ears! Needed items were borrowed from a neighbor. My father took careful pains to "return these in at least as good condition as when borrowed" and he was strict about respect for persons and property.



cdarrow26 - 09/12/10 12:52 PM

Question of the week (QOTW):

[/b] How have you changed how you view money? How has this affected your relationships with family and/or friends?[/quote]

Wow, I don't even know where to start to answer this question! I didn't wake up and pay attention to money until my mid-30's, about 4-5 years ago. For the past 10 years, I have had a pretty decent income for a single person, living in a LCOL area. I bought my first home when I was 30 and I was in NO position to own a home. It could have, and probably should have, been a complete disaster, but turned out ok. I lived paycheck to paycheck, didn't budget anything other than "bills", never had any money in savings, and spent and spent and spent, never thinking or really caring about how I would pay for it all. I loved to shop...I still love to shop, but I used to do it out of boredom and lonliness. I had a house full of "stuff" but still wasn't happy, and the stress of the bills kept piling up.

If any emergency or unexpected expense came up, it would send me into total crisis mode. I had no savings and credit cards were often maxed out. I never said no to anyone, not myself, not boyfriends, not friends, not family. "I can't afford it, it's not in the budget" was not a part of my vocabulary. It actually was accidentally discovering Dave Ramsey that got me to wake up and start making a plan to clean up the mess I had made. I sold my house, moved into my parents vacant house (which I am now buying). I started to make and live on a budget. I was able to start saying "no" to myself and other's. If I didn't have the cash for it, it wasn't in the budget. I sold a bunch of crap. I worked two and three jobs. I got rid of cable. I stopped shopping for anything but necessities and even then found the cheapest price. I now lived 15+ miles from the mall and other shopping and when gas was $4+ a gallon, I stopped going anywhere or doing anything "extra" that involved driving. I stopped going out with friends. I saved up $1000 in an EF and have maintained it for close to 4 years.

I am still a million miles away from paying off my debt, BUT, I don't worry about it ALL the time now. I am in such a better position now. I just had a situation happen that years ago would have put me over the edge. When I wrote out my September budget (yes, I still do my budget by hand!) I somehow missed my electric bill and loan payment, which together total almost $300. This would have been major panic mode in the past. I am still mad at myself and like "duh, what were you thinking" but now I just transferred the money from another account to cover it and will gradually put it back over the next few paychecks. I also turned my mom on to Dave Ramsey a few years ago and SHE has been working hard to get out of debt as well. She has actually made a lot more progress than I have, probably because she lives with her DBF and they have 2 incomes, but still, she's 62 and I am SO proud of her. She should be able to retire soon and ENJOY it!



startsmart - 09/12/10 03:10 PM

Question of the week (QOTW):

[/b]How have you changed how you view money? How has this affected your relationships with family and/or friends?[/quote]

I have always been really conscious about money and spending it. When I was growing up my dad was in a field with a lot of turnover and it always seemed (to 7 year old me) that he would lose his job right before my birthday. So I was really anxious and felt guilty if I asked for anything. As a result I would minimize my birthday, not want things and *gasp* have never had a birthday party just for me!

Growing up I had the battle between wanting cool stuff and being conscious of the cost, whether for me or to my parents. As a result if it was free or cheap I was all over it. Loved garage sales, thrift stores, and so on.

After college I was running my own finances, and my grandparent's household. So I began to look into my options, my finances, think about the long term scenario.

Now I think I've got a more holistic view - it isn't just about getting the most stuff for the least amount of money. It's not even just about trading money for time or experiences. First and foremost it's all about deciding who I am, who I want to be and what I want out of life. Only then can I make the best choices about earning, saving, investing and spending money.

How this influences my relationships?

Well it changes everything. When my buying choices revolve around exactly who I am then it's both easier and harder to explain. It's a simple conversation to say "I don't care about watching TV each week so I don't pay for cable" but it's hard to explain myself, back up my words and actions and deal with the result.


Honeylioness - 09/13/10 02:57 PM

QOTW:[/b] I had to stop and think if I would answer this in terms of how in the last year, five years or 10 years have my views changed. In my 20s and 30s I never felt that I had enough money to get me from paycheck to paycheck - yet at the same time I would have called myself yankee frugal. Looking back however, and as my brother Steve says "Hindsight is 20/20 and usually masochistic", I can see all the big and small ways I sabotages my sense of financial security with bad choices and motivations.

My family would probably have been classified as "poor" until I was in High School. I remember money being a bone of contention in the house and between my parent's and grandparents. As a result I developed feeling of guilt anytime my parents did spend money on me. However something of my grandparent's experiences during the Depression must have worn off on my because in High School when I would get my clothing allowance from Mom I would head to the second hand stores for clothes I could wear as is, or alter, or embellish and come home with bags and bags AND change - while my brother had a pair of shoes and two pairs of jeans to show for HIS foray into the mall.

I do feel more aware of where my money is going - which is not to say I have a complete handle on all the areas I would like - but I do think identifying my weaknesses does help me keep them from blooming into extreme excess.

I am sometimes keenly, and perhaps even uncomfortably aware, of the financial disparity between myself and my younger brother, or myself and my best friend. I am usually successful in not dwelling on this - but there are times when it is brought sharply into focus not only the difference in actually financial resources, but in attitude towards them as well.


COTW: I am currently saving all my change and bringing it to the bank a few times a year, and will walk to the local "spa"/bodega/store for milk to things like that. However I do need to get serious about quitting smoking. One new motivation will be the new-to-me vehicle I hope to have by the end of the month. AND the cost keeps rising. So I am going to try only smoking outside. No more inside comfort away from cold, rain or bugs. I am hoping this will help me further wean myself off them.


shanendoah - 09/14/10 12:21 PM

QOTW: Its funny, but I don't know how much my childhood actually shaped my attitudes toward money. Goodness knows I didn't get everything I wanted, had to save my allowance, birthday and christmas money for some things, and when I started babysitting, had to put half of what I earned in savings. But even after my parents divorce, when DOM and I lived in low income housing and she worked 2 jobs, I don't know that I noticed money much. Maybe because my friends also didn't have a lot to spend. Sure, we'd spend our entire Saturday at the mall, but we rarely bought anything. My entire life, DOM was a garage sale queen (dress up clothes!) and shopped at the St Vincent de Paul, and it never occurred to me that other people didn't.

The first time I really thought about money was my freshman year of HS. I'd been an extra in a movie and had gotten a paycheck for it. As per the family rule, I had to put half in savings. DOM and I were leaving the bank and I was complaining about it. Then, for the first time ever, I noticed a homeless person holding a will work for food sign. I stopped complaining.

Still, even when I was on my own, I didn't think about money beyond whether I had enough to pay rent and eat. After my first year of college, I did end up with a rule that my share of rent should never be more than 1 paycheck, but beyond rent and groceries, I didn't think about money. It came and went, but there was so little of it, it didn't matter.

Now a days, money is a tool. It keeps my family housed and fed and healthy. I'm paying off student loans, but I don't regret that debt. Otherwise, it is saved, working toward other goals. More than ever, I have wants - an eReader or tablet PC, and new desktop PC (or at least faster processor and graphics card), a new kitchen, having my house professionally painted, new carpets throughout, adding a bathroom to the downstairs, fabulous vacations, etc. But I prioritize. Which one do I want most? Which one is little enough that it won't sabotage the others?

Still, money is such a small (though necessary) part of what makes my life good and happy, that I try not to think about it much. That's why I plan and budget. An ounce of prevention, so to say...

[Honeylioness]

Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/14/10 09:33 PM

Honey,[/b] Just read the latest journal entry about David D'a Khat. Oh Honey, this is just too wonderful. I could not read without tears in my eyes to think how far this wonderful kitty boy has come in six months. Ladies, do check out the blog. Wow. I remember that some of the early entries were not so happy. For newbies, David is a rescue cat (rescue seems an insignificant word) Honeylioness took in, cared for, rehabilitated really, through home care, vet care, and just plain care. A huge shout-out for her and for dianartemis whose big heart has meant the difference between a new chance on life for "Prince" and a fate much less pleasant. For newbies, SES_Books' adoption of Miss Onyx our first year on the thread made our days brighter as we lost ourselves in the story of Miss Onyx, her first months at home with the beloved TJ until his passing in his twenty-first year.

[Honeylioness]

spruby - 09/17/10 11:02 PM

If you think it is too early for x-mas - you should skip the rest of this post. I started making our list of x-mas gifts to buy and I swear it gets shorter every year. This year we are going to refuse to exchange gift cards (i.e. cash) with people - it seems silly. I like to buy what I think are thoughtful presents based on the person's interests/likes/personality etc. Kids love my gifts, pets love my gifts (yes I buy for fur-kids) - adults want gift cards. Bah humbug. So this year - lots of people will be cut - I'm just going to suggest to everyone we go out to dinner instead. We will still give the in-laws gifts - although we had thought of stopping with them too - but they surprised us by actually giving us a suggestion for what they wanted (already in the amazon cart - waiting for next pay day). DH & I agreed to not exchange gifts to - I love unwrapping stuff (yes - big child here) - but we have more stuff than we need and prefer vacations anyway. Anyone else tried this and been successful? Any push back that you were surprised by? Did you miss not having stuff to unwrap (silly - I know!!!)?


teh mom - 09/17/10 11:15 PM

I like to buy what I think are thoughtful presents based on the person's interests/likes/personality etc.

spruby-I'm with you! If friends get me something (and I don't have anything for them), I smile wide, open the gift, oooo and ahhh over it, and say thank you so very much! I DO NOT rush out to buy them something just because they got me something. If I didn't see something that made me think of them, I don't worry about it. The friends I have love to give gifts, no recipitation needed. DH and I haven't exchanged gifts in years. Mainly because it meant more for the kids. If I see a DVD that he would enjoy, I'll pick it up to be unwrapped as a family (under our tree each year is a stack of DVD's, I pass out three at a time and each kid gets to unwrap, when they are all unwrapped, that's it). I have to say that the majority of these DVD's are previewed ones from B.lockbuster and the $5 bin at Wally World. I do give cash to the nieces and nephews, because they are at the age that what ever it is that they want, they are pooling all the gift money together to buy. Usually get some clothes for my kids, and then one other gift that is specifically for that child. And cinnamon rolls for Christmas breakfast.Tongue out Only time I bake them (unfortunately they are pillsbury ones, not home made).


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/17/10 11:50 PM

spruby, teh mom, I think there is a wonderful QOTW or COTW in both your posts. I'm a bit out of it to word it, but I do believe it is NOT too early to think of Christmas. Especially here...in a month, not more, the bad snows can begin and it makes good sense to start to think hard about December.


3catslady - 09/18/10 08:19 AM

spruby;[/b] I just bought my GF a book for Christmas. She likes to knit dishcloths and this book has 16 different ones in it. She got me a book and a pair of slippers last year and I didn't get her anything. We are always good with that. I give my DS and the family gift cards because they throw out anything I make then and their "toys" are too expensive for me. As for DVD's, they have over 150 each, games-movies-songs, so they don't need any more, IMO.

Sharing; Are we going to draw names again this year?


spruby - 09/18/10 09:12 AM

I have friend at work that I exchange gifts with - we know each other well and are good at getting the other person something they would like - sometimes we both find things for each other - sometimes not - no hard feelings. Frankly family tends to be the biggest PITA.

Sharing - I love x-mas so it is never to early for me to start thinking. Plus over the years we've reallocated our money to assisting a local foster care/family assistance group and buying toys for Toys for Tots (so I have a reason to buy toys WITHOUT having kids). I find the earlier I stick it in my budget - the more we can do by buying a little at a time. Easier to spend 50/paycheck than 500 in November. I always worry about buying gift cards early and having them expire - although I think under the new credit card law they can't do that.


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/18/10 12:03 PM

Question of the Week:[/b] (with inspiration from spruby, teh mom.)

What advance planning for Christmas/Hanukkah gifts do you do in the final months before December?


Challenge of the Week: (with inspiration from spruby)

If it is within your means, identify a charity whose cause really speaks to your heart and plan to participate.




Angel 33 - 09/18/10 12:22 PM

What advance planning for Christmas/Hanukkah gifts do you do in the final months before December?

Well, I have a Christmas fund that I deposit money in all year long so that way I have money to actually spend at Christmas without putting things on the cards. I also do a lot of online price comparrisons so that I can make sure I get the best price for an item. I also talk to the kids and make sure I know what gifts that they want the most.


If it is within your means, identify a charity whose cause really speaks to your heart and plan to participate.

I donate to a charity called Open Arms. It helps orphans in India. It is important to me to give back to my daughter's birth country. I also like to donate school supplies to the school. They make up supply packets for kids in needs.


MittenKitten - 09/18/10 01:13 PM


Xmas Planning:[/b] I start shopping for Xmas on December 26th but I try not to go crazy and get things that people will like and need. At that time I am also shopping for people's Birthdays. Throughout the year if I see something someone will like at a great price I buy it and put it in a tote for later. Then I don't get hit with a huge bill at Xmas time.



cdarrow26 - 09/18/10 01:14 PM

If it is within your means, identify a charity whose cause really speaks to your heart and plan to participate.

The Humane Society. I donate supplies regularly. This is where I rescued my Taco dog, one of the "bestest doggies" in the world.

I hate to be a Debbie Downer, but I no longer give to ANY of the Toys for Tots or Angel Tree type programs. After working in the social work field for 15+ years, I've just seen way too much abuse of these programs, among others. I'd rather give to the animals...



azmomx3 - 09/18/10 01:20 PM


QOTW: [/b]Well as you can tell from my post yesterday I start with a list of gifts for each kid. I don't shop too early because they are kids and their wants and needs change so frequently. Once I have an idea of what I am going to get them I comparison shop like crazy. We used to buy gifts for EVERYONE. They were all thoughtful gifts based on that individual person BUT THEY WERE BOUGHT ON CREDIT. That is an average of 10 nieces and nephews 5 siblings, 3 friends of the family, MIL, and FIL PLUS our kids. I loved it because I have a givers heart and it made me happy to shop for other people. After joining this thread and getting a real grasp on our money situation we no longer use credit which means we no longer purchase gifts for everyone. DH and I do not purchase gifts for each other. We would much rather use that money for vacation time. I make my MIL a gift, usually pictures of the kids in a shadow box, scrapbook album, picture frames depending on what I have on hand. It is still personal and thoughtful and she loves getting them. In stead of gifts for the rest of the family we host Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve Dinner. We feed everyone and I usually leave the cookies and cup cakes undecorated so the kids can make their own magic. I love to read them stories and we sing songs. I also make a kids table and have coloring sheets and/or a craft for them to assemble. They are all things I have on hand from my scrapbooking shopping years ago. I still have a surplus of never used supplies. Christmas morning DH's family does a white elephant exchange with a $20 gift card. We used to let each kid play, now we do boys and girls. We may just do it as a family this year.

COTW: It is very important to me that our focus is always on others in need. In the kids Bible Study group they each get a shoebox and fill it with items to send to children in another country. (Samaritans Purse). Our church also does a Christmas Angel Tree. DS picks a boy his same and DD picks a girl her same age and we purchase the item for them and pray for them. (I do make sure they are items within our budget before we get them) We also do teacher gifts and bake goods for our neighbors.


SES_Books - 09/18/10 03:26 PM

So many great topics to address today!

COTW- My current "charity" is our local volunteer fire department. They were so wonderful the last year of my mother's life. I am convinced she was able to remain at home an extra six months due to the care and attention of those wonderful volunteers.

Christmas/Gifts--My friends and family generally get homemade/handmade gifts. So many are working full time or have such busy lives I generally give gifts from my "Christmas Kitchen." It is a nice time saver for them. I make a large variety of cookies, candy, flavored popcorn, jams, jellies, syrups and/or homemade cinnamon rolls/specialty breads. I try to start in October or November so that I can start giving the gifts before the holiday rush starts for everyone. And get everything out of my house before I eat it.



Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/18/10 03:44 PM


QOTW, I have not been good at planning for Christmas, so I am taking notes on all your good suggestions.

COTW, I lean, along with cdarrow, to the H.umane Society. I will add one more charity. I think it will be a donation for holiday season suppers for the homeless. Often, they have zero family who will still connect with them because of instability issues and I think the volunteers who prep and serve Christmas dinners are true angels.


spruby - 09/18/10 04:41 PM

cdarrow [/b]- when you say abuse of the Toys for Tots system do you mean parents who sign up for toys for their kids even though they can afford to buy them or something else?

COTW - all year round we have contributions to a local animal shelter (source of our boo baby - aka my dog), a battered women's shelter, food bank, international aid program and health care program. All causes we believe in - we worked up to the point of being able to give a decent amount to one, then added on each year. I think we are at our limit and will try to start increasing the amount. We are very blessed to have stable well paying jobs during a very tough economy and been able to recover from a personal financial disaster. The families/seniors/foster kids we donate to at x-mas (different mix every year) are screened through the city's health and human services group - I've been donating through them for years - so feel pretty comfortable that there is real need being met there.

QOTW - I should save all year for x-mas - but I don't. We both tend to get bonus/profit sharing in Oct/Nov so that funds a lot of x-mas - mostly I just start saving/buying in August. BUT I have to be done by Thanksgiving for anything that comes from the store - because I refuse to go certain places (mall, Targ*t) after turkey day. We also do a holiday party - most years - so I start planning that now and buying things ahead of time - paper goods, treats, etc. I count the holiday party as my "gift" to work acquaintances/casual friends - they'll get food, free drinks, AND a small gift (coffee house gc with enough for a drink - more than enough!.



dakota4600 - 09/19/10 05:03 PM

QOTW-[/b] I try and buy things that catch my eye during the year, I have bins in one closet and they are labeled kids gifts and adults gifts. Then when it is gift giving time I get out the bins and shop from there first before heading to the stores. For those who get us gifts that we don’t usually get gifts for we do keep tins or bags of homemade cookies and candy around, figuring we’ll eat it if it doesn’t get given.

COTW-I’ve decided to a CVS challenge and donate the proceeds to our church’s Food Pantry. The challenge is to start with $20, then pair their weekly sales and Extra bucks with manufacturers’ coupons and see how long you make that $20 last. Some people have ended up with about $200 worth of goods with $20 out of pocket. Right now I’m in the coupon collecting phase, my parents and IL’s are saving the coupons they don’t use for



reeneejune - 09/19/10 08:24 PM

christmas gifts [/b]- yes I've started my list already. No, I don't give gift cards (in most cases). There are times when I know a gift card to say, the grocery store for a struggling friend helps more than anything else, and so I give that. I received one the christmas after I moved out on my own, and it made me cry because I needed to buy TP and didn't have any money left. Everyone gets hand made gifts. I do my best to match the gift to the tastes and desires of the recipient, even if it means they know what they're getting in advance.



Sheila in Cali - 09/20/10 10:17 AM

QOTW: [/b] I have been picking up toys and that for the nieces and nephews as I find them on clearance. I have a cabinet full of board games, legos, crafts etc for the kids. Normally we only exchange names for the grandkids. So DS has to buy for one of his cousins. $20-$25 limit. BUT since I have two godchildren that are also a niece and nephew I have to buy for them. Plus my sister's kids I see every day so I'd feel guilty not buying for them. So out of my 7 nieces and nephews I end up buying for 5 (the previous 4 plus which ever name DS got). I have basically all of their presents bought and am good to go. Only have to do DS and Miss Pants (niece by love not DNA)

My mom wants us to stop buying her and dad presents so we started a new thing this year where all the adults exchanged names. $10 limit and the presents have to start with the letter "R"- next year it will be the next letter in our last name and so on. The "Z" year is going to be tricky. I found my SIL a rock engraved with her name for $5 and am going to get her Rollo candies and call it a "Rock and Roll-o" present. I can make her some mix Cds as part of the rock and roll theme. Dorky I know.

COTW: I am the finance chair with the local relay for life. My mom is a survivor and the whole family takes it pretty serious. I am also a member of "Team R" too. We do fundraisers through of the year for the relay.


GLDNLUVLY - 09/20/10 11:25 AM


Charities[/b]-I will be donating to a charity that feeds the homeless or provides meals to those less fortunate. It really bothers me that so many people in our country go hungry every day.

Christmas-I am so not bothering with it this year except my son.



shanendoah - 09/20/10 12:02 PM

QOTW:[/b] I may have said this before, but my birthday is 4 days before Christmas, and it just stresses DH out. He believes that a good present shouldn't just be something I like, but something that has deeper meaning. So, we don't do birthday presents, and we don't really do Christmas either. I do go to the dollar store and get stocking stuffers. We get the MIL a season of one of her favorite shows on DVD. We normally get my mom a little something and my dad and step-mom, too - CDs or something similar. If my brother has expressed a need for something, we'll get him that - a couple years ago I got him a rice cooker and an electric kettle and he was thrilled. We do all of our shopping online (other than the dollar store) because that way not only don't I have to go to the mall, I also don't have to go to the post office and mail things. A.mazon delivers right to their door. Its especially helpful with DBro being in Australia.

But for the most part, what we do is host Thanksgiving and Christmas at our house. We cook for our friends and have them all over for a day of hanging out and having fun. They often bring side dishes and the like, but we cook (and pay) for the bulk of it.

This year, for the first time ever, I've actually budgeted for it. We have a bill that will be paid off in Oct, and instead of putting those $ toward other debt right away, we're going to use those payments to pay for the holidays.

As spruby mentioned, I do kind of miss opening gifts. My parents and grandparents still send a little something, so I have some wrapping paper, but when I was a kid, Christmas morning took all morning (and sometimes longer), even though DBro and I were up at 7am. We opened 1 gift at a time, each person taking turns picking out a gift (they couldn't pick one that was for them), and with DBro and I being the only grandkids for so long, there was just a pile. But at the same time, I've found over the years, I love giving gifts more, and my biggest challenge is not getting DH something extravagant.

COTW: We donate everytime we're at Pets.Mart ($1 added on to our purchase), buy for pet food drives, and donate to the food drive we do at work. (My new department may not be part of that, but I'll still contribute). The food drive at work is generally our big donation. We take a couple of our trips to Cost.Co during the drive and just buy double of everything food related, plus some things we wouldn't buy for ourselves (canned veggies) but are needed by the food bank. As a child, DH and the MIL sometimes received food from a food bank, so it is very important to him that we donate the same type of things we buy for ourselves - rice, mac and cheese, soup, etc and not canned anchovies.

I have a goal of wanting to start my own charity to help the homeless take care of their pets (because I totally get why you have your dog and cat even when you can't care for yourself), but I actually need to get off my behind and do it. I'm thinking along the lines of food and vet care. Maybe I'll make that one of my 2011 goals.


Honeylioness - 09/21/10 01:27 PM

QOTW: Like MittenKitten and dakota I tend to "shop" for Christmas and birthdays all year long. If I see something at a flea market, crafts show, store sale or online that is a great match for a specific person I pick it up. There is a large plastic storage bin in the extra bedroom closet where all these items live throughout the year. Then around November 1st I pull it all out, see where there are gaps and work on those.

In the next couple of weeks I will be making jams and sauces to use as gifts as well as stocking my pantry. And I make my father a fruitcake each year as well - that I need to have done at least a week before Thanksgiving so I can let it soak up at least two applications of rum before I send it.

My target date for mailing wrapped Christmas gifts is between Thanksgiving and December 1st. That way I can send them the most economically and know they will still arrive in plenty of time. That leaves me all of December to bake, go to a concert or see a play instead of fighting the insanity at the Mall.

I have already had the Christmas present talk with the girls and encouraged them to pick up things now that they would like to send as gifts for their families back home. I also explained the huge cost difference in mailing items overseas by December 1st versus waiting until the 15th - and they are both onboard with the goal of getting this done by Thanksgiving weekend.

One thing I have slacked on a bit in the last few years is cards and doing a newsletter. My goal this year is to get these in the mail no later than December 10th this year.

COTW: There are several organizations who I feel do a great job in not only utilizing the majority of what they receive back into helping those they are helping, but who I think fill a need that may not be as visible as other causes: Salvation Army, ASPCA, my local animal shelter and Heifer International.

I would like to come up with a way to get the girls involved in donating this year.... should put that on my To Do List


TakeAHikeInNC - 09/21/10 10:42 PM

QOTW:[/b] I wish so much I could shop, or at least be keeping an eye out, for gifts throughout the year. But my 5 sisters, brother, and couple of BILs pull names each year so we have to buy for only one person. Problem is, they do this on Thanksgiving, which leaves us stuck shopping between T-day and Xmas each year. This Christmas, I'm going to beg and plead for them to do a Christmas day drawing of names for next year so we can all keep an eye out during the coming year and find something really special for whoever we draw. Anyway, other than buying for one sibling/BIL, I usually just get my parents (who are in their 80s) gift cards for their favorite restaurants, since they have pretty much everything they could want/need but do still need to eat. The only other person I do X-mas for is DBF. I've been paying attention during the year and have a list of some small things (eg, a book) he might want, but he's been needing a new bed/mattress for forever, and I might try to find a deal for him this year.

COTW: I give through my bi-weekly paychecks to 2 things: 1) a variety of environmental agencies, including Natural Resources Defense Counsel and NC land conservation -- I just think we have to save what green space we have left, not just for humans to enjoy, but because, to paraphrase the intro to some tree-hugger video I watched recently, "I just don't understand how we think we can destroy the habitat, and eventually the existence, of other species and think that it will have no impact on the survival of our own." And 2) the faculty/staff family scholarship fund at my university, which is something I feel compelled to support, since my parents' ability to provide me with choices and opportunities to pursue an education was such a gift. I cant' stand the thought of someone having the ambition and talent, but not the opportunity, to pursue their own dreams and growth. Other: my office usually either adopts a family or contacts several local social service agencies (especially serving foster kids and elderly/disabled) to help out during the holidays and I try to include that in my Christmas budget.

[Honeylioness]

shanendoah - 09/21/10 06:49 PM

Rant/Whine Ahead[/b]

So...I looked at the waiting children on the northwest adoption exchange website today. *head--->desk* I know better than this. *sigh*

I still really want to be a mom, but I also still really don't want a baby. Just watching our friend's 19 month old every other Sunday for 6 hours stresses me out. She's a great child and I adore her parents, but I never enjoy my time with just her. I connect with kids great once they're about 3 years old (mobile, verbal, potty trained), but under that, I am just never really comfortable. And I just can't imagine spending three years of my child's life dreading spending the day with them. Its just not fair to anyone involved. (I should also note that DH is not really a baby person either, though he always seems more relaxed around the baby than I do. But that may be because I'm the one watching her, and he's just there to help out.)

So that still leaves adoption. But by the time we're looking at 3 or older, we're looking at adoption from foster care or international. Both have distinct issues associated with them that DH, who will be the primary care giver, isn't certain he can handle. So I have to respect that the same way he respects my baby issues.

Can I be 3 myself for a moment and throw a temper tantrum? I want what I want, when I want it, how I want it.

I need to talk to DH again and not let this fester, but I doubt much has changed in the last 5 months.

Maybe I should follow Honey's lead and look into opening our home to exchange students... I do love teenagers.


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/21/10 07:55 PM

shanendoah, [/b]Honor your instincts. Wow! Think of the teens who could benefit from someone who just loves that age group. Some are just wonderful with babies. Other ladies should speak up here, but I think there is a comfort zone for most of us. From Grade 7 on (the age of Sheila's DS) they are just so interesting. Don't think of yourself as a lesser mortal for preferring one age to another. As a recreation leader in my teens, eight year-old boys were just a hoot. Keen, enthusiastic, on fire, loving...they were my favorites. Ten year old girls are very helpful and pretty amazing. Grade Eleven boys are the funniest people on the planet. Ditto Grade Nine boys. Grade Tens, both genders, are from h#ll, as moneysquirrel agrees with me. Six year-old girls are astonishing little souls who seem downright precocious. Four year-olds of both genders are incredible fun to take to the midway, a special train ride, etc.


Honeylioness - 09/22/10 09:45 AM

shanendoah -[/b] Aside from the adoption issue I would highly recommend being a host parent for a number of reasons:

* You get to re-learn and experience your own country and culture through fresh eyes and get a better appreciation of it in the process

* The kids in our program are highly motivated and have good social and verbal skills

* It can get you out of your rut and out interacting with people (something I needed)

* You will discover new things about another country or culture that you may have thought you already knew something about

* You find out that not all teenagers are sullen and defiant. Kids in this program actually DO want to spend time with you talking about all sorts of topics - from pop culture to the debate between the Big Bang and Creationism

* You might find that an older child would be a better fit for you once you are ready to adopt

* You get to laugh at the skeptical look on their faces as you pull a can of SPAM out of the cabinet for dinner. And then laugh again when surprise surprise they actually LIKE it

* You can flex those nurturing "muscles" that have not been exercised as much as you would have liked

* You get the opportunity to show them that not all Americans are self absorbed, status symbol driven, radical left/right wing, hyper-consumers. My girls are both interested in how you work a household budget and personal finances. One is taking a class on this as part of her high school curriculum and the other asked about how other people kept track of their spending the other night. We also talked over dinner one night about how people get into such terrible financial situations and how to avoid them in the first place.

Shameless Plug: For anyone else who is interested in learning more about the group I work with, and that my company helps sponsor, their website is here www.yfu-usa.org/

[Honeylioness]

Ombuds_18 - 09/20/10 11:19 AM

My life's not working! Wrong place to vent? 2 yrs ago my DD short sold her house back to the bank and moved in with 3 3 kids. I've basically been supporting them ever since ..... buying clothes for the kids, paying for the middle one to go the the MDs, food, camp, vacations. She pays nothing. Then she moves her BF in so I ask for $100 and 1/2 utilities until he gets paid at his new job. So he quits. Starts another one today and she was told to pay 1/2 PGE. Not happening. Told her this morning that he will have to pay rent. After all, he isn't' her husband [that's the guy who comes and gets the 2 little ones from me every other Sunday]. She still gets to 'play' each weekend. I even just shorten GS1's pants for GS2 as they were too short for GS1 and too long for GS2. There are still at the tailors. And GS2 needs those 4 pants for the winter. Now GS1 desperately needs to see the dentist ... not happening. Angry Meanwhile my goals are on delay. I even thought of moving and having them pay rent so I could live elsewhere not fiscally responsible for them. Hence the frustration that she isn't paying 1/2 PGE and it's due.

SO where am I on annual goals? Despite all this, almost there but too tired to post much. I'm only $587 away if the market holds up on one goal .... needing 5k for another new one [GS1 wants to go the DC w/ his 8th grade class]. But now I need to try to live on 2500 a month less [pension = 2000, WW = 200 every other week ....] if I am to move out for peace and solitude. I'll still have the kids sort of 1/2 time as she leaves every Saturday at the crack of dawn and returns on Monday.

This month's goal: complete LT = 587, start ST = 5k, figure out what I need to live on INDEPENDENTLY from the DD/BF situation


teh mom - 09/21/10 01:16 PM[/u]

I've basically been supporting them ever since

Ombuds- Big hug! Hard to say no to our children and grandkids. Easy to say no to a boyfriend (!?!). What (if any) was the "deal" when he moved in? Was it to pay rent to you? Or did you come home one day to find him all moved in already? This reminds me of when 3cats first joined us. She has come a long way, I hope you can also.


Ombuds_18 - 09/21/10 09:48 PM

teh, I came home and he was here. Then she stated he started work in WC & needed a place to stay / wondered why I objected / WW3. Well the job lasted 2 days and he was supposed to start a new one yesterday ... now that's Monday. Childlessly I stopped buying food. They can go hungry.


3catslady - 09/21/10 10:12 PM

Ombuds; y[/b]ou are not being childish. You are preserving your sanity and anything goes. My DS and I don't talk for days because I refuse to buy him what he says they "need" because they have everything they need, they just want something different than what they have. When I bought this place 5 years ago, DIL was working and so was he. She quit the day before I signed the mortgage loan. He continued to work but is not working now. She is working part time and hates the job and wants to quit. I told him someone is going to pay half of the rent or they can find a new place to live. I hate the thought of putting my DGKs out in the street, but as I was told, they are doing this, not me. I have the mortgage down that I can pay it myself for the next 5 years but then the one loan has a balloon payment due then. I don't know what I am going to do then but that is in the future, not now. Take care of yourself first, then your grandkids. Every one else can go to .........


teh mom - 09/22/10 11:10 AM[/b]

Childlessly I stopped buying food. They can go hungry

.

Ombuds-Bravo!!! *standing ovation!* Bravo! Better than what I might have done. As in calling the police on an uninvited guest who wouldn't leave. Bravo!! I really still recommend you going to the library. This has gone on far too long, and now she doesn't see what is wrong with you supporting a boy friend?! The pink posse just might have to ride again.

Please, oh please, kick the boyfriend to the curb, maybe your DD will go with him.


Ombuds_18 - 09/22/10 01:19 PM

Wow, that was some Freudian slip. I am not 'childless' ~~ got a whole housefull of them [some as old as 30].

3cats, I know what you mean. When I left my gov't job due to the fact that I did not want to turn away pt's w/o funds or coverage, I was fine. I had a pension and a paid off house. I never thought I would be in this situation. After my 'mini' explosion and explaining to DD that she needed to file for divorce and bankruptcy so that she would ever be able repair her credit to rent on her own, she informed me to stop interfering in her life / get my own / and stop making BF feel uncomfortable in her home. Stated she would take the kids and live on friends' couches if necessary. Well, the kids shouldn't suffer ... the adults should but not the kids. She even tried to equate my DS living here for 2 months between jobs and before he bought his townhouse. But he gave my his unemployment check and got a new job. Now he stays away although he invited the kids and me over last night. I really don't want to move ~~ I like my house ~~ anyway, BF now shirks off to their room and is ignoring me. YEA!!!!

QOTW: I think Chanukah is covered [$100 in rewards cards from Macy's, $50 from Nordstrom, and I'm not feeling very generous towards DD ... DS is so involved with redoing his new-to-him home that he bought I'll need a trip to Home Depot ... what is the consensus on a gift card amount for him?]. We [4 siblings, DS, mom, 1 nephew, and I] make cookies and share ... bring a container for each one of them about 1/2 dz in each container. Last year I made mini-loaves of gingerbread. This year I'll probably do cookies with the new cookie press that DS gave me so the cost is negligible

COTW: donated $100 to the annual High Holyday drive, will donate $100 to cancer walk [Sis just diagnosed]


Honeylioness - 09/22/10 02:56 PM

Ombuds -[/b]

Okay, I am going to stick my paw into this discussion for a moment. First off, I have a couple of questions:

* Is your daughter working?
* Does she receive any other forms of income such as state assistance, child support etc?



nitza19 - 09/22/10 04:24 PM

Ombud:[/b]

and stop making BF feel uncomfortable in her home
I really don't want to move ~~ I like my house ~~

This makes me fightin' mad. IT IS NOT HER HOUSE. IT IS YOUR HOUSE. YOU ARE NOT MOVING.


Ombuds_18 - 09/22/10 04:39 PM

Honeylioness, [/b]she works 2 PT jobs and d/n get any assistance / child support. Personally I think she should be getting on the Section 8 housing list so that her number could eventually come up. Doubt she will make enough to afford a place by herself and he isn't motivated [why not ~~ probably b/c he already has 3 hots & a cot]


teh mom - 09/22/10 05:02 PM

and stop making BF feel uncomfortable in her home.

Ombuds-WTHeck!? Is her name on the mortgage? hmmmm? Is she paying rent? hmmmm? I think not! Her home indeed.......

Please "let" her move herself and the kids (and BF) to someone else's couch for a while. The kids will come out fine. You can still purchase needed items for them. If she is leaving them with you every weekend (except weekend that the dad has them), she will continue this set up. I doubt she will change her habits just because she changes local.

I see others have chimed in also, I'll post this and then read what else others are saying. Good luck!


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/22/10 06:14 PM

Ombuds,[/b] DD should be getting down on her hands and knees and thanking you daily. As the thread knows I'm scarcely one to talk Embarrassed, just...more hugs.


spruby - 09/22/10 08:33 PM

Ombuds - teh mom [/b] is right - the kids will be fine - also - where is their Dad in all of this - can he step in and take the kids when/if you kick her out? My sister was much like this and there was no happy ending. Please take of yourself. -



reeneejune - 09/22/10 09:18 PM

ombuds -[/b] to chime in my two cents (for what it's worth), I would hand deliver a letter to all occupents of the house over the age of 18 that goes something like this:

"Recently there has been some confusion regarding the ownership of this house. I, ombuds, am the legal owner of this house and everyone else is a guest here by my good will. Effective (30 days from today), adults over 18 living in this house will cease to be guests and will be considered tennants and as such will be expected to pay rent in the amount of $100 a month. In addition, they will be responsible for purchsing food for themselves and their dependants, as well as paying 25% of the monthly bill for luxury utilities such as cable tv and internet if they choose to use these services. Unemployed adults may work off their rent by working 20 hours per month doing household chores (see attached list of approved chores). Hours will be recorded on a time sheet and work will be approved by ombuds. Unemployed adults must also show that they are actively seeking employement. Failure to pay rent by the 5th of each month or failure to complete work hours in lieu of rent will result in immediate eviction. That means that you will come home to find your belongings packed up on the sidewalk and the locks changed. Those who disagree with these terms are welcome to move out any time between now and (date 30 days from today)."



I personally think that would be more than generous.



teh mom - 09/22/10 09:45 PM[/b]

rent in the amount of $100 a month

The lowest rent I've seen in my area is $600.00 per month for a two bedroom apartment (not nice apartments, just something a young person could afford that was wanting out of the house bad). So that would be $300.00 per adult. You need to ask for at least the amount that would be Section 8 housing. If she is paying it to you, she might as well get out on her own. But I do like Reeneejunes idea of a "30 day notice". DD has had 2 years already. The moocher (BF) need not get so comfy and $100.00 per month rent would be comfy.



reeneejune - 09/22/10 09:52 PM

The amounts I put in there are just examples. I was trying to balance the fact that I know ombuds really wants to help her DD and the fact that she can NOT be the sole provider for all of these people. I may have this completely backwards, but did I understand that DD is still married to someone else (the GK's dad) but is living with BF? I know precicely what would happen in my family. There'd be a "come to J.esus" meeting where DOM would declare that until the divore is final and legal, there will be NO hanky-panky, nookie, sharing of beds, or even alone time allowed to DD and deadbeat BF. Heck, I'm barely allowed to show my Mr. Potential my room (with the door left open, the lights on, two other people in the house and less than 5 minutes total time out of grandma's line of sight).

At the very least, ombuds, you should put your foot down and say something to the effect of "this is my house, and while you live here you will live by my rules, adult or not. don't like it? pack up and move out."

I might also say something to the effect of, "DD, you are family and as such I feel an obligation to help you out in a time of need. However, it will be on my terms. Your BF, on the other hand, is not family and at this time I am not able to help anyone but family. He needs to go, like yesterday."



SES_Books - 09/22/10 10:27 PM

Ombud-[/b]-I agree with renee AND teh mom. Charge her rent comparable to the section 8 rate, put it in a separate savings account, without her knowledge, to be used to assist the GK when needed. If she has to pay you as much as section 8 AND put up with grief about the BF maybe she will decide section 8 housing looks good. Right now she is blackmailing you, and you are allowing it. I just keep thinking about the example she is showing the GKs and what they are learning. She is teaching them to become users.


cdarrow26 - 09/22/10 10:33 PM


I think renee's letter to Ombuds DD is perfect! I have a personal horror story of enabling an adult child. My sister moved into my father's home with her criminal BF and her 2 kids. He ended up stealing from dad (big surprise) and is doing up to 3 years in prison...that's the thanks you get for allowing someone to mooch off you, live rent free and have all of the bills paid. Not to mention that they destroyed the house, which I had to spend my time and money fixing. It was a nightmare!


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/23/10 07:41 AM

reenee,[/b] Oh my gosh. You and teh mom are on a roll! I'm laughing all over my coffee, though I do realize our Ombuds' situation is anything but funny. cdarrow, My youngest DSis had a similar situation. She's S.alvation A.rmy and got caught up in a rescue mission that went very badly...because, I guess, she didn't sort out "help" from falling for the dirty rotten scoundrel (and BTW, wasn't that a hilarious movie!) which S.A. makes very clear is not part of the rehabilitation program. Sigh.


Honeylioness - 09/23/10 11:55 AM

Ombuds -[/b] I see that several ladies have offered up some practical advice as to how to approach your daughter and her boyfriend so I am going to try and give you some additional information / validation / "ammo" if you will - that I hope will help you see and understand that at this point practicing Tough Love is the right thing to do.

I am going to preface this by saying that from your comments and references I am working on the assumption that you are Jewish, and thereby by Judaic law so is your daughter.

The Torah teaches that under the obligation to perform tzedakah it can be fulfilled by "... giving money to the poor, to health care institutions ..... It can also be fulfilled by supporting your children beyond the age when you are legally required to..." However it also says that "...We have an obligation to avoid becoming in need of tzedakah. A person should take any work that is available, even if he thinks it is beneath his dignity, to avoid becoming a public charge." ⁽¹⁾

But there is recognition of the practical facts that in some cases accepting public assistance is necessary in order to provide for one's children - something I think you daughter has not done. Beyond and above the responsibility of the parent to care for the child however is the far greater directive of the child to honor the parent.

Most Talmudic scholars agree that the Fifth Commandment of "Thou Shalt Honor Thy Father And Thy Mother" is compared to honoring G-d. The Talmud says that since there are three partners in the creation of a person (G-d and two parents), honor showed to parents is the same as honor shown to G-d. It also compares a number of similarly constructed passages from the Torah and concludes that honor toward parents and honor toward G-d are intentionally equated - this is true in the Old and New Testament as well.

The second category of the halachos governing the conduct of children to parents is mora [reverence, or fear]. It means that one should act towards his parents as he would towards a sovereign with the power to punish those who treat him disrespectfully. 16 Rambam, Sefer ha-Mitzvos 211. ⁽²⁾

Honoring one's father or mother is not a mitzvah incumbent only on young children either. It is one that is active for the duration of the parent's life. What can one's child think about his own parent when he watches the latter treat his own father or mother with a lack of respect? So often, a child's feelings of respect for his parent later in life is based upon the respect shown to his parent's parent in earlier years. ⁽²⁾

This is where I take great exception in your daughter's actions in this situation. You may have offered your home - YOUR home - as a temporary shelter for her and her children when her house was lost but she and her HUSBAND carry the moral obligation to care for themselves AND their children. In this manner she has not only taken advantage but shown a blatant dishonor of you and your home.

You noted in your first post that her HUSBAND comes by on Sunday to spend time with his children. And yet she also has a boy friend? For me this would be completely unacceptable on several levels:

* If she does have a legal spouse why is he not providing money for the support of his childrens' needs? If there is not a court order in place for this there needs to be one ASAP. She has lived with you for two years - I think that more than qualifies as a Legal Separation

* Secondly, if she is married yet wishes you to accept her living with another man at the same time she has not only crossed a moral boundary but a legal one as well. And what about the lesson she is teaching her children? That such narcissistic devotion to what she wants is more important than doing what is right?

In an essay written by Rabbi Michael Gold he talks about dealing with such issues with this from a recent essay "Parents also do not need to compromise their own values in their relationships with their children. Children cannot blackmail their parents into participating in something they do not believe in. I remember a daughter coming home from college with her boyfriend and telling her parents, "We sleep together in school; we want to share a bedroom at home. It would be hypocritical to have separate rooms." I advised the parents to tell their daughter, "In our home we set the rules. I will not allow sleeping arrangements that violate our values."

* In your position I would be informing her AND her boyfriend that he has 48 hours to pack up and get out. No ifs, ands or buts. It is your legal property. If he is not gone by Sunday morning you will call the police and report him as a trespasser. You have NO obligation to support him in any way. Let him go mooch off HIS parents (whom I would bet would not let him). They want to play "house"? - get off your a$$, get a job and do it on your own dime.

* Her actions also cause others to perhaps see you in a less than favorable light: A child must never put a parent to shame, or speak arrogantly toward one's parent. ⁽³⁾

I would tell her to be glad she is living in the twenty-first century as Torah equates the respect you owe your parents with the respect you must show God. Furthermore it says, 'Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death' (Exodus 21:17). By using the same terms the Torah compares cursing of parents with cursing the Almighty.


Now, as others have said let me remind you again .... it is YOUR house, it is YOUR money and as much as you may want to do things to help your grandchildren they are the responsibility of THEIR parents. She wants you to "butt out of her life"? Great - tell her that will happen as soon as she has her OWN address. But that no matter what her chronological age she will NOT dictate to you what will go on in YOUR home.


(1) "Torah 101" by Mechon Mamre, Jerusalem, Israel.
(2) Rabbi Doniel Neustadt
(3) Donin, Hayim Halevy. To be a Jew: A Guide to Jewish Observance in Contemporary Life. (p. 129)


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/23/10 02:23 PM

Honey, shanendoah,[/b] Wow. Those were both such fascinating posts, though different subjects. I love what we learn here on the thread.


Ombuds_18 - 09/23/10 06:10 PM

Honeylioness & reeneejune, [/b]you're right but it's hard to evict in CA. I've notified USPS that all of his mail needs to be rejected and they're doing it. We're in the middle of WW3 here .... wish she'd go and leave the kids. I actually don't want rent, I want peace


shanendoah - 09/23/10 06:23 PM

Ombuds[/b]: www.dca.ca.gov/publications/landlordbook/whois.shtml I don't think your daughter qualifies for the eviction protections because she has never paid rent nor do you have a signed legal agreement. She has been a guest. Now, she is tresspassing. However, if you are concerned about it, it looks that by definition, your daughter would be a "lodger" not a tenant, and if rent were due every 30 days, then you could legally evict her with only 30 days notice.


SES_Books - 09/23/10 06:25 PM

Ombuds-[/b]-As I was reading your last post a thought flew through my mind. Do you know an advocate or rabbi or attorney you could visit with about elder abuse. It is your house and the rules are being dictated to you as to whether they will (or can be evicted). I'm not saying to go through with it, just using it as a leveraging tool. The more I hear of the situation I am becoming more and more concerned about the kids. Is their father in any position to help with them, financially or custodially?


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/23/10 07:19 PM

Ombuds,[/b] I know what you mean about WWIII. DD#1 (33) and DD#2 (31) can go off like loaded pistols in a fireworks warehouse. Confrontation terrifies me, so I just stay quiet and camouflaged, LOL. If I had answers, I'd share them but alas, I have more in common with your situation than otherwise.


TakeAHikeInNC - 09/23/10 07:22 PM

Ombuds[/b]—The other ladies are offering a lot of good advice/suggestions, and I don’t really know what to add to it, but I did want to say I’m so sorry you’re having to deal with such an awful situation!


teh mom - 09/23/10 07:37 PM

I actually don't want rent, I want peace

Ombuds- We are praying for you and the grandkids.


spruby - 09/23/10 07:59 PM

ombuds [/b]- I second SES' thought on elder abuse - please protect yourself


MuttleynFelix - 09/24/10 09:24 AM

Ombuds [/b]- I second SES. Please get some help. It is YOUR HOUSE! Not your daughter's.


Honeylioness - 09/24/10 10:01 AM

ombuds [/b]- Please do what YOU feel is right for you. No one should have to live in such a situation. Perhaps your son can help advocate for you and even have a little sibling slap-down with your daughter?

As a side note I hope no-one was offended by my post yesterday. I know we all have different beliefs from deeply traditional Christian denominations, Judaism, secularism, ancient mystical and nature based practices to atheism and agnostics and other more private observances. It's just that I believe there are times where even though we get great legal/financial advice and resources it can also be helpful to hear that there is also a faith based tenet to support our decision and actions. Especially when they are really difficult ones.


shanendoah - 09/24/10 10:50 AM

Honey:[/b] My theory is "Any port in a storm" "any tool in the toolbox". Just because a tool is not available to me (due to my own choices) does not mean that the people to whom it is available should not be made aware of it/take advantage. Any help Ombuds needs, she should get.


azmomx3 - 09/24/10 11:38 AM

Ombuds:[/b] I watched my brothers and sisters completely take over my dads house, moving back in with their kids and boy/girl friends. It was not an easy thing to watch. After he died, I had to pay his mortgage for a couple of months in order to secure a place for each of them to go. He had just let his home owners insurance expire and although their was money left, the house was not something I was interested in keeping up with on my own. (I say I had to but rather it was a personal choice made out of moral responsibility, empathy for the kids, and it gave me a way to cope with my grief because I was busy with the details). My sister moved in last Summer for "a couple of months" I let so much build inside and would vent to DH the situation became so out of control because I failed to speak up. What seems like common sense to me, apparently falls clueless on her. I was the only one cleaning, cooking, grocery shopping etc. We didn't charge her rent because we were helping her save money for a deposit and I am still okay with that because she was laid off from the school district and was waiting to see if she would be picked up by another school and she is a single mother and has been responsibly providing for her and her girls since my dad died 10 years ago. She did pitch in for groceries but it just became an emotional toll. Especially when a couple of months turned into more and I watched them spend money on "things". I finally had to ask her to find somewhere else to live. It was especially hard because she has 3 girls and she is my younger sister and we don't have parents and I still feel a sense of responsibility for their well being. It was one of the hardest things I have ever done but it was very much needed for the sake of my sanity and marriage. She rebounded just fine and is once again providing for her girls on her own. I have no advice because I know from the outside it may seem like a simple solution would be to just kick them out (and I would agree) but when you add the emotional connection and guilt it blurs everything when you are in the midst. Hugs and prayers for a quick resolution.


************************************************


Reference Materials for me



The second category of the halachos governing the conduct of children to parents is mora, reverence, or fear. It means that one should act towards his parents as he would towards a sovereign with the power to punish those who treat him disrespectfully(16). 16 Rambam, Sefer ha-Mitzvos 211.


Honoring one's father or mother is not a mitzvah incumbent only on young children either. It is one that is active for the duration of the parent's life. What can one's child think about his own parent when he watches the latter treat his own father or mother with a lack of respect? So often, a child's feelings of respect for his parent later in life is based upon the respect shown to his parent's parent in earlier years.


By Rabbi Doniel Neustadt



Parents may not be responsible for a child's actions, but they do have a right to communicate their feelings. If a child is wise he or she will listen. "Ask your father, he will inform you; your elders, they will tell you." (Deuteronomy 32:7) The Torah teaches that we must respect our parents feelings even if we need not necessarily obey their wishes. Most parents care about their children, want the best for them, and have wisdom to share with them. Children, in their quest for independence, often do not listen. But a child should never say, "Mom and dad, I did not know it was so important to you."

Parents also do not need to compromise their own values in their relationships with their children. Children cannot blackmail their parents into participating in something they do not believe in. I remember a daughter coming home from college with her boyfriend and telling her parents, "We sleep together in school; we want to share a bedroom at home. It would be hypocritical to have separate rooms." I advised the parents to tell their daughter, "In our home we set the rules. I will not allow sleeping arrangements that violate our values."

Perhaps most important, parents can always disapprove of what a child does. Nonetheless, they must separate the action from the individual. Parents should not disapprove of what the child is. Love must be unconditional. Communication must never be cut off. No matter how far a child strays from his or her parents values, there is always a chance that there will be teshuva, usually translated repentance but literally meaning "return." There is a hasidic story about a man who went to his rabbi frustrated with his son's difficult and uncooperative behavior. The rabbi answered, "love him more." We may not always

© Rabbi Michael Gold



Shulchan Aruch/Yoreh Deah
240

Seif 1 - One must be very fastidious in the honoring of his father and mother and in being in awe of them.

HGH: In any case, a court cannot enforce the mitzvah of honoring one’s mother and father, because it is a mitzvat aseh (positive commandment) for which the reward is described with it [i.e. in the verses], for which a court cannot compel regarding it.

The father's obligation toward his child includes all of the child's daily needs. He is also obligated to educate the child to Judaism, to teach a male child a trade, to redeem him if he is the firstborn (see Firstborn. Redemption of), to have him circumcised, and to see to his marriage (Kid. 29a). While he is not obliged to see to his daughter's marriage, he is obliged to provide her with sufficient clothing, etc., so she will be considered marriageable (Ket. 52b).



The commandment to honor one's human parents is compared to honoring God.[10][11] The Talmud says that since there are three partners in the creation of a person (God and two parents), honor showed to parents is the same as honor shown to God.[16] It also compares a number of similarly constructed passages from the Torah and concludes that honor toward parents and honor toward God are intentionally equated:

Our Rabbis taught: It says, 'Honor your father and your mother' (Exodus 20:12), and it says, 'Honor God with your wealth' (Proverbs 3:9). By using the same terminology, the Torah compares the honor you owe your father and mother to the honor you have to give to the Almighty. It also says, 'Every person must respect his mother and his father' (Leviticus 19:3), and it says, 'God your Lord you shall respect, Him you shall serve' (Deuteronomy 10:20). (Here the same word, -respect- is used.) The Torah equates the respect you owe your parents with the respect you must show God. Furthermore it says, 'Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death' (Exodus 21:17). And furthermore it says, 'Anyone that curses God shall bear his sin' (Leviticus 24.-15). By using the same terms the Torah compares cursing of parents with cursing the Almighty.[17]

– Talmud Kiddushin 31

Because honoring parents is part of honoring God, the mitzvah does not depend on the worthiness of the parent:"Even if his father is wicked and a sinner, he must fear and revere him ... A convert to Judaism must not curse or despise his non-Jewish father."

It also requires honor to one's stepparents or an older sibling who is raising one,[21] and one's teachers, though one has a greater obligation to honor a parent than a grandparent.

The commandment is repeated eight times throughout the bible.




While Jewish teaching holds that a married woman must honor her husband, there are also guidelines for how she may continue to honor her parents:

It is the duty of both men and women to honor their parents. However, a married woman, who owes devotion to her husband, is exempt from the precept of honoring her parents. Yet, she is obliged to do for the parents, all she can, if her husband does not object.

– Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 143:17



Obedience: The commandment requires one to obey one's parents when the command given by a parent is reasonable and permissible under Jewish law. For example, if a parent asks a child to bring him/her water, s/he must obey. Because honoring God is above all mitzvah, if a parent asks a child to break a law of the Torah, s/he must refuse to obey.

Everything that your father says to you, you are obliged to obey. But if he says to you: “Let us bow down to idols,” you must not obey him, lest you become an apostate.

– Midrash, Yalkut Shimoni, Proverbs 960

I am the Lord your God, and both you and your parents are equally bound to honor Me, therefore, you must not hearken to them to disregard My word.

– Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 143:15


Other requirements: A child must never put a parent to shame, or speak arrogantly toward one's parent. *

* Donin, Hayim Halevy. To be a Jew: A Guide to Jewish Observance in Contemporary Life. (p. 129) 1991 Basic Books. ISBN 0-465-08632-2


A person who is told to do something by his/her mother for which his father does not like the result is not permitted to tell his/her father that his/her mother said to do that. This is because this could lead to his/her father cursing his/her mother.[38]

A child is not permitted to interrupt or contradict a parent, or to disturb a parent's sleep.[39]

Rewards

The rewards for honoring one's parents are as follows:[43]

* Long life[44]
* One's children will honor the follower of this commandment

Consequences

As with most terms of the covenant between God and Israel, there are consequences for disobedience as well as rewards for obedience:

Just as the reward for honoring father and mother is very great, the punishment for transgressing it is very great. And the one who afflicts his parents causes the shechinah [presence of God] to separate from him and harsh decrees fall upon him and he is given many sufferings. And even if life smiles on him in this life, he will surely be punished in the World to Come.

– Kitzur Shulchan Aruch 143:4


Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. “Honor your father and mother” (this is the first commandment with a promise), “that it may go well with you and that you may live long in the land.”[46]

– Ephesians 6:1-2 (ESV)

Ruth honored her widowed mother-in-law Naomi. Simeon Solomon, 1860.

In his letters to the Romans and Timothy, Paul describes disobedience to parents as a serious sin.[14]

The words of Jesus and the teaching of Paul indicate that adult children remain obligated to honor their parents by providing for material needs.

But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God.

– 1 Timothy 5:4 (NIV)


The Catholic Church teaches that adult children have a duty to honor their parents by providing “material and moral support in old age and in times of illness, loneliness, or distress.”[58] This honor should be based on the son or daughter’s gratitude for the life, love and effort given by the parents and motivated by the desire to pay them back in some measure.[59]




"Torah 101" by Mechon Mamre, Jerusalem, Israel.


While Tzedakah (Charity)The word "tzedakah" is derived from the Hebrew root Tzade-Dalet-Qof, meaning righteousness, justice, or fairness

is a well established practice within Judaism the Torah stipulates the routine giving of 10% -


The Obligation of Tzedakah

Giving to the poor is an obligation in Judaism, a duty that cannot be forsaken even by those who are themselves in need. Some sages have said that tzedakah is the highest of all commandments, equal to all of them combined, and that a person who does not perform tzedakah is equivalent to an idol worshipper. Tzedakah is one of the three acts that gain us forgiveness from our sins. The High Holiday liturgy states that God has inscribed a judgment against all who have sinned, but teshuvah (repentance), tefillah (prayer) and tzedakah can reverse the decree. See Days of Awe.

According to Jewish law, we are required to give one-tenth of our income to the poor. This is generally interpreted as one-tenth of our net income after payment of taxes. Those who are dependent on public assistance or living on the edge of subsistence may give less; no one should give so much that he would become a public burden, nor more than twenty percent of his assets even if he would not become a public burden.

The obligation to perform tzedakah can be fulfilled by giving money to the poor, to health care institutions, to synagogues, or to educational institutions. It can also be fulfilled by supporting your children beyond the age when you are legally required to, or supporting your parents in their old age. The obligation includes giving to both Jews and Gentiles; contrary to popular belief, Jews do not just "take care of our own".

Judaism acknowledges that many people who ask for charity have no genuine need. In fact, the Talmud suggests that this is a good thing: if all people who asked for charity were in genuine need, we would be subject to punishment (from God) for refusing anyone who asked. The existence of frauds diminishes our liability for failing to give to all who ask, because we have some legitimate basis for doubting the beggar's sincerity. It is permissible to investigate the legitimacy of a charity before donating to it.

We have an obligation to avoid becoming in need of tzedakah. A person should take any work that is available, even if he thinks it is beneath his dignity, to avoid becoming a public charge. In particular, Jewish legal scholars, teachers, and rabbis must make their living at something other than teaching the Oral Torah and relying on charity, even if this entails hardships for them, lest they profane God's name, and lose their part in the World to Come. Unfortunately, many rabbis have failed to take this seriously in recent generations; some have brazenly gone so far as to say that the public must support them, and that they are forbidden to work.

If a person is truly in need, however, and has no way to obtain money on his own, he should not feel embarrassed to accept tzedakah. No one should feel too proud to take money from others. In fact, it is considered a transgression to refuse tzedakah. One who would sooner die than to accept tzedakah, when he must do so in order to survive, is as if he sheds his own blood.

Levels of Tzedakah

Certain kinds of tzedakah are considered more meritorious than others. The Talmud describes these different levels of tzedakah, and Maimonides organized them into a list. The levels of charity, from the least meritorious to the most meritorious, are:

1. Giving begrudgingly
2. Giving less than you should, but giving it cheerfully.
3. Giving after being asked
4. Giving before being asked
5. Giving when you do not know the recipient's identity, but the recipient knows your identity
6. Giving when you know the recipient's identity, but the recipient does not know your identity
7. Giving when neither party knows the other's identity
8. Enabling the recipient to become self-reliant



Attitude Towards Wealth

The attitude of Judaism towards wealth is quite positive since it enables one to help others. Those that use their wealth to help the poor will be blessed by God (Deuteronomy 15:10; Isaiah 1:17-19; Proverbs 19:17). Wealth, peace, and/or long life are rewards from God for obeying God’s laws (Leviticus 26: 3-13; Deuteronomy 11: 13-16; Deuteronomy 25:15; Proverbs 22:4). The Talmud (Babylonian Talmud, Taanis 9a) also sees wealth as a reward from God. In a wordplay on the verse (Deuteronomy 14: 22): "You shall surely tithe," the Talmud advises that one should tithe in order to become rich (the Hebrew word that means to tithe is very similar to the word that means to become rich). The verse (Proverbs 11:24), "There is one who scatters and yet is given more" is interpreted by many of the commentators (e.g., Rashi and Ibn Ezra) as referring to one who spends his money on the needy. Wealth is seen as "comely to the righteous and comely to the world" (Babylonian Talmud, Avot 6:8), and affluent people who used their possessions to help others were respected by the Talmudic sages (Babylonian Talmud, Eruvin 86a).


Who is an honourned man? He who honours |other~ people. For it is said, "For I will honour those that honour me, and those that despise me will be slighted" (I Samuel 2:30).(6)


The second category of the halachos governing the conduct of children to parents is mora, reverence, or fear. It means that one should act towards his parents as he would towards a sovereign with the power to punish those who treat him disrespectfully(16). 16 Rambam, Sefer ha-Mitzvos 211.


Honoring one's father or mother is not a mitzvah incumbent only on young children either. It is one that is active for the duration of the parent's life. What can one's child think about his own parent when he watches the latter treat his own father or mother with a lack of respect? So often, a child's feelings of respect for his parent later in life is based upon the respect shown to his parent's parent in earlier years.




Religious Jews believe that Moses brought the Ten Commandments and the Torah down from Mount Sinai. Rabbinic Jews also believe that there is another part of the Torah besides the 5 books of Moses. It is called the Mishnah, also called the Oral Torah or Oral Law. It explains how to follow the laws written in the 5 books. There is a commentary (explanation) of the Mishnah, called the Gemara. Together, the Mishna and the Gemara make up the Talmud. Karaite Jews however believe that there is no additional Torah besides the 5 books of Moses.

The basic laws and teachings of Judaism come from the Torah, the first five books of the Hebrew Bible. These are taught in both written and oral traditions.

The Hebrew Bible is the most important holy book of Judaism. It is a collection of writings called the "Tanakh" (??”?) in Hebrew. It is divided into three parts - Torah (?, Instruction), Nevi'im (, Prophets), and Ketuvim (??, Writings).

[Honeylioness]

Simplified Living


Looking For It - 09/26/10 04:11 PM [/b][/u]

I have recently done some soul searching and reading and am trying to move towards a more simplified living style. I am looking at all the "stuff" we have in our home and trying to determine what can be sold/donated or thrown away. I am also trying to figure out if we are truly spending our money on what we "value".

I am looking to see if anyone else has made such a transition and how they went about it.



njhappygal - 09/26/10 04:56 PM [/u]

We also went through similar transition few years back. At one point I was working in Manhattan where clothes and handbags were a symbol of your status so everything had to be "nice", high heels, suits etc. And then I got burned out. I moved away from the city into far suburbia with my honey. No more expensive suits and $150 shoes. We cleaned out our closets and only keep what we use daily, only rarely replacing jeans/underwear when they're worn out. No more bar scenes, no more expensive "outings". We're happy to go camping, going hiking in the woods on the weekends or just walking around the lake. Our home is pretty large but very simply set up. Comfy couches that people can relax on and you can spend a nice evening in front of the fireplace when it gets chily. We don't have any knick-knacks but we do have some candles and plenty of plants/flowers to make the decor interesting. Our decorations are pictures that we took ourselves and enlarged them into the size we wanted - mostly nature of course. House is set up in a way of a "zen" environment where it invites you to rest and relax. We've been growing our own veggies and cooking dinner at home and taking home-made food to work for lunch. Going out once in two weeks to eat is now the highlight but we noticed that we can make the same dishes at home just as well and taste just as good so only when we're very lazy we'll go somewhere else to eat.

We don't have any fancy gadgets or gizmos at home. Our electronics consist of one office set up (for emergency mostly when we're stuck at home and he has to do some work from here); one tv/vcr/dvd set downstairs in the family room that's very rarely used and mostly for guest. We don't have entertainment systems, or hand-held devices etc. We don't have landline phone - only 2 cells that we use for emergencies. We just downsized to one car but might have to go back to two eventually as my commute to work is much longer than his. That's still debatable as I'm happy with 1 insurance and less gas/maintenance bills. We have friends/relatives over sometimes for holidays but keep it simple. No junkfood for snacking in the house - I'll make fingerfoods myself if they want to snack and they can have plenty of fruit/veggies. Now that the fall is here we're going out more - to pick apples and to various fairs -that part is still important to us. It's entertainment but it's not clubbing and not in a shopping mall. It's either being outside on fresh air or home with our 3 furbabies. This life works for us. Hope you can find the one that would suit your new style.


stormynight - 09/26/10 05:22 PM

This happens to be one of my favorite subjects to discuss. For the past few years I have been clearing out a lot of stuff but most importantly not replacing it. The rule is one new thing in, one or two out.
I started with the easy stuff. Old papers that could be shredded or used as fire start, clothes that did not fit or not worn in years, stuffed animals I bought on a whim, fiction books already read, duplicate sheet sets etc... That was easy to give away and made my storage a lot easier to organize.

Then I got rid of all the ugly hangers, kitchen items never used (fry baby, bread maker ect.). I didn't miss any of it and my house was so much nicer looking and easier to clean.
I recycled the glass that candles come in, gave the local florist those cheap glass vases and baskets you accumulate as gifts.
Now I am down to clearing out some not wanted pieces but hard to give away. Art work that cost a lot of money.

I really think hard before buying anything. Clothes have to be what I really want and know I will wear. I would rather pay $100 for a great sweater than $100 for 5 sweaters. I don't need 5 more sweaters. I do the 24-48 hour wait test as well. Sometimes the urge to buy something is just that, an urge.

I am a clutterphobe now and not a stockpiler. My house is clean and calming. I also have saved a lot of money by not buying more stuff. There will always be toilet paper on sale.

Our family has gotten to the point of very little in gifts and they need to be consumable. Anything from gift cards to favorite restaurants to gift certificates for manicure/pedicure, yoga retreat, concert tickets or gourmet foods.

Life is easier for many reasons. Cleaning is easy, having money in the bank is less stress than worrying about bills, not wasting time shopping and instead spending time with things that are enjoyable and knowing that as I get older things are just things and chances are your kids/family do not want all the stuff you have. I have no kids but my parents are packrats and I know what is coming and am dreading it.

I value time with my SO, family and friends. Travel, plays, concerts, retreats, spa days, or a nice meal out. We are going to northern MI next weekend for the color. Money will be spent on the B&B and food. There is no need for a sweatshirt, postcards or any other souvenir.

There is a thread on Smart Spending about the money wasted on stuff. Lots of regrets with collecting baskets, beanie babies and stuff. All that stuff will eventually end up in the landfill.

The other thing I do is use things up. I burn my nice candles, I soak in dead sea salts, I use wonderful soaps and drink the fancy hot cocoas or teas. I don't wait for someday special. Today is special.
I also have read every 'clean your clutter' book out there as well as a multitude of simplify you life books.

Good topic, I look forward to reading other responses.



2007debtheaven - 09/26/10 06:57 PM

This is one of my favorite topics too. I am a clutterphobe married to a pack rat LOL. His mom was a terrible pack rat, DH is not as bad but he has kept a lot of her things, mainly books and kitchen equipment. After cleaning out his parents' four-bedroom house and garage and shed, I have to admit that although he kept too many things for my taste, it was a small fraction compared to everything he got rid of.

Our family has gotten to the point of very little in gifts and they need to be consumable.

After cleaning out his late parents' house about 10 years ago, DH adopted this idea too. We only give non-consumable gifts within our immediate family, and to the younger children in our extended family. And as our kids have gotten older more gifts become consumable. We generally prefer "experiences" to "stuff".

We have raised / are raising four kids in a 2000 sq ft house with no garage, just a small garden shed and lean-to. We are not shoppers, we spend the majority of our disposable income on travel or modest home improvements. But with six people in the house, I have always decluttered very regularly. Every year I went through / go through the kids' closets and desks and toys (with them). It clears stuff out, and hopefully it teaches them how to do it, and how nice it is to live in an uncluttered environment.

I don't know if you have children but one "trick" I found to help kids declutter effectively is that we always "redid" their rooms when they changed schools, ie primary to middle school, middle school to high school. We encouraged white walls (but never forced them) because with a new rug and new curtains and new sheets, they had a "new room" at little expense. But, to get that "change of school new room", they had to go through EVERYTHING in every closet, shelf or drawer. Ikea is your friend here. DH and the kid in question took a weekend to repaint the bedroom themselves.

Hope this helps.


2007debtheaven - 09/26/10 07:02 PM

PS We live in a temperate climate. I tend to do the shed and lean-to every spring, the kids' rooms at the end of the school year or just before the next school year, and the basement in the fall or winter because who wants to be in the basement when the weather is good?! I always have a "next" project or two ... now it's my clothes closet (because I started a new job and I need to dress less casually), the bookshelf of kids' videos / DVDs and every winter, the Annual Basement Purge (our basement is only two rooms, the bigger one is DS1's bedroom and the smaller is our ONLY storage space. It also contains our pantry and boiler / hot water tank).

I am also trying to figure out if we are truly spending our money on what we "value".
One thing you could do would be to put a 30- or 60-day moratorium on ALL unnecessary spending. At the end of those 30 or 60 days you would definitely see what your priorities are (and they may not be the same for you and your husband).



turtlegirl1970 - 09/26/10 07:30 PM [/u]

I can't stand being surrounded by "stuff", at home or work. Quite a few years ago I used to shop alot more, out of boredom, I think. I also had credit card debt to match. Now, I have savings instead. Quite often when I do shop now, I will often come home with nothing frivolous. I sometimes walk around a store carrying something for a while, then after thinking about it, I put it back. I like those moments. I do live in a small 1 bedroom apartment, so do not have room for alot of stuff, but have been clearing out even more the last couple of years. I need to do it again, as I do keep things I think I will use, then never do. So I am sure I have more to get rid of. Now, my mom does have an attic that I have too much in, but we keep saying we are going to have a yard sale. It has not happened, so I am going to donate it here soon. I do need to keep things like Christmas items there, I do not have room for that here. But, I do need to go through it, as my taste has changed as far as what I want to display.


Thanks for the reminder that I need to clean out again!



stormynight - 09/26/10 08:42 PM

I haven't put up a tree for the last few years. I have been out of town with my SO so my Christmas decorations consist of some real greenery with candles on the fire place mantle and dining room table and some holiday candles scattered around. I also play Christmas music to make it festive but skip the tree. That may change when we move in together.

I went to a fall art fair over the weekend. Nothing tempted me. There were some beautiful pieces of pottery. Nice but I just don't want anymore stuff. I stopped at the mall on the way home and again could not find anything I just had to have. I usually hate going to our local mall but this was a big one in a larger town so I thought it would be fun and different. Same chain stores with the same stuff.

My SO is a minimalist. I will actually make him have a little more stuff once we move in together because I do like comfort and some functional art. I am like the previous poster who said she had a Zen type house. My SO has very little so it makes it hard to cook and I like my dishes to be the same and glasses to match. I like nice but simple.

I watch the Hoarder's show with morbid fascination. I can't imagine having trails to get from one spot to another. All the stuff/garbage/trash makes me anxious.

The other thing I did to simplify my life was get rid of the analog TV when they went digital. I'm not much of a TV watcher anyway. I can catch a show on HULU if I want. I turned the room into a yoga room. It has a small love seat and one small table with a candle on it. Plenty of room for yoga and very Zen. No cats allowed.


Looking For It - 09/26/10 10:15 PM


Thanks to everyone for the posts.

Yes I have kids...4 in total. DD in college..DS is 3 and then boy/girl twins that are 20 months. The baby stuff I just sold to a resale store was amazing. Kept thinking we would sell it at a mother of twins club garage sale but they kept coming and going so I found a new way to get rid of it.

I am really hoping to get the simplifying thing accomplished before they get old enough to get sucked into the "stuff".

I am the pack rat of the house. Grew up extremely poor and can't get rid of that I may need it and not be able to afford it mindset. Right after I had the twins I got rid of almost all of my old clothes that I have not fit in since I had my 3 year old. And as you can guess I lost all my baby weight from both pregnancies after the twins and am still functioning on a very small wardrobe that fits. Had to buy some jeans and a couple of tops.

Thanks for all the ideas on decorating the house. I am not a knick knack kind of girl, but I would like to have the house looking nice.

Trying to figure out how to really get dh into it. He hasn't said anything about what I've gotten rid of, but I really need him to be completely on board and even leading the way sometimes and I am a packrat by nature.


Queen of Credit Cards - 09/27/10 10:09 AM

I am looking at all the "stuff" we have in our home and trying to determine what can be sold/donated or thrown away.

With 3 children under the age of 4, I would think you have very little spare time. Unless money is very tight, you might consider just trying to only sell the things that are worth a lot of money and are in great condition and donate the rest and not try to spend a lot of time trying to recoup small amounts of money. I used to feel guilt about getting rid of things that I might need "someday" and have to buy again and giving away things that I could have sold for money, but I've stopped feeling guilty because I'm giving these things to charity. I cleaned out my closet and tried on my clothes keeping only the things that look good on me (my husband actively participated in the fashion show). I keep a box in the bottom of my closet and another one in the laundry room and any time I find something I don't like or that doesn't fit, I put it in the box. When the box is full, I drop it in the bin in the church parking lot. Whenever I do a thorough cleaning, I find a few more items that I don't really want anymore and put them in a box. When the box is full, the next charity having a rummage sale receives it or I drop it off at goodwill when I'm in the neighborhood.



chicg - 09/27/10 12:03 PM

I keep a box in the bottom of my closet and another one in the laundry room and any time I find something I don't like or that doesn't fit, I put it in the box. When the box is full, I drop it in the bin in the church parking lot. Whenever I do a thorough cleaning, I find a few more items that I don't really want anymore and put them in a box. When the box is full, the next charity having a rummage sale receives it or I drop it off at goodwill when I'm in the neighborhood.

I've participated in some decluttering exercises that use something similar to this concept when in the "purging" stage. They call it the "outbox." If you're on the fence about getting rid of something for fear you might need it, want it, miss it, etc...put it in the outbox and let it sit for a week, maybe a month. Chances are you will not miss the item and the anxiety over getting rid of it will have passed. It's usually more mental when you get rid of something, if you even contemplate getting rid of it, chances are you can but it's that mental cold-turkey or ripping-off-bandaid effect that scares people to make the decision, so said item sits in storage for another year. If you have trouble purging, try the outbox. half the time I laugh when I revisit it, wondering why I was so worried to give up the item.

I started simplfying when I cut back on spending and I must admit, I LOVE living more simplified and now that I have more disposable cash, I have not reverted back to more stuff. Too much excess gives me anxiety. I don't want to live bare bones but I admit to turning my nose up when my friends go on and on about stuff they bought. Quality over quantity these days.



ATSiaRU - 09/27/10 01:06 PM

I started simplifying by first decluttering - this was about 5 years ago.

I started by going thru my bathroom cabinets/linen closet. Did I really need 7 sets of sheets and 8 blankets for 1 queen size bed and one queen sized Guest Aero bed? Did I really need the dozens of towels? Why did I have all those bottles/containers of 1/2 used stuff? I immediately put a stop to shopping and buying! I was overwhelmed by the amount of stuff - and couldn't decide what to get rid of so I came up with some general rules:

If it was broken or worn out - it was discarded (trash or donate - animal shelter takes towels in just about any state)

If I just couldn't figure out what to part with - get rid of (donate, give away) 1/2 of the stuff. I had 4 working toasters and for some reason couldn't start by getting rid of 3 of them. Two of them went. The third one went out a year later during a second pass...

As for the 1/2 used cleaning/personal care products - I made the supreme effort to use them up with a couple of rules:

if I started using a product and really really disliked it or it truly didn't work - I could immediately find it a new home (give it away - a SIL and friend LOVE trying stuff) or trash it. Otherwise, I had to tough it out and use it up. I went almost 2 years before I started to run out of personal care/house cleaning stuff.

I applied the same approach to kitchen stuff, clothes, decorative stuff, whatever I wanted to declutter. If I couldn't bring myself to part with Everything except 1 of something - I usually could talk myself into getting rid of 1/2 of the total. On later passes I got rid of another 1/2, and so on.

I felt funny getting rid of stuff - so I started telling myself that if I donated something or if a SIL or friend wanted something I was giving away - then well, that thing would be used and "loved" by someone else - better than wasting away unused in my house.


Former_Roomate_99 - 09/27/10 03:53 PM

Paying for a place big enough to store your 'stuff' is what keeps a lot of families living paycheck to paycheck. It isn't just the cost of housing and utilities. Families who live far from their jobs so they can afford a big place end up wasting a lot of time and money commuting.

When DH and I got married our single apartments totaled 1200 sq ft. We moved into an 800 sq ft apartment. Everyone told us to buy a house, that having a basement to store our stuff would prevent a lot of arguments. They were right. We were miserable the whole time we were in that apartment. But living in a small place forced us to get rid of a lot of stuff and buy some space saving furniture, like a bed with 12 drawers underneath and a couch that folds into a bed and has storage underneath. Once I got pregnant, we moved to a 1000 sq ft townhome with a 500 sq ft basement. 2 kids later, we haven't outgrown it. Because we were able to live in such a small place, we were able to afford to live in a really nice neighborhood 3 miles from my job.


2007debtheaven - 09/27/10 04:10 PM

I am really hoping to get the simplifying thing accomplished before they get old enough to get sucked into the "stuff".

The best thing you can do is set an example. It is much easier to teach children that shopping is not a hobby when you don't spend every Saturday at the mall (not saying you do of course, but I know plenty of people that do).

If you are looking to declutter, set yourself do-able tasks. Choose one room. Do the closet in that room. Then the shelves in that room. Then the piles if there are any. When that room is finished, move onto the next room, and again, take it in bits. As a fellow mom of four (although my kids are older now thank Gd lol) I know you are EXTREMELY busy, so you MUST set yourself do-able goals: one room every two weeks, or every month, for example. This said, personally I do better with "blitzing" things.

We don't ebay, when I declutter I want it out of the house yesterday, so I generally give or donate it. I have a former colleague I give DD and DS3's old clothes to when I go to my old office for lunch every few months. DS3 (12) really wants to sell his nicer clothes that were given to him by his gdmother and are now too small. Now that my basement storage room is more manageable I have agreed to keep his "stuff" there till June, till the next neighborhood yard sale, but whatever doesn't sell that weekend will go to Goodwill (or my former colleague) that week.

I am 50 now, so I know what our priorities are: the house, and experiences / travel. Other than those two things, we are very low maintenance LOL. Also we are both very lucky, we are both totally on the same page as far as expenditures go. It's great that you and your DH are also on the same page ... look at it like a new adventure, and have fun!

I think the most important thing with any change, be it decluttering, or debt reduction, or losing weight, is to set reasonable, achievable goals. (The expression "SMART" goals comes to mind but I can't remember what it stands for.) And, don't forget to reward yourselves along the way!


patchwork150 - 09/27/10 04:27 PM

I have been feeling like 'simplifying my life' lately as well. I have a lot I want to do- and I really want to get over the attatchment to physical objects. I enjoyed moving to my (bigger) apartment when I did because I was able to declutter and reduce what I have. Lately though, I have been feeling like we have been accumulating again! We have enough stuff to have a small personal gym lol, among other things.


stormynight - 09/27/10 07:10 PM

ATSiaRU, that is exactly how I did it. I live alone for now and had at least 8 sets of sheets for my bed and the guest room (which is rarely occupied). A ton of bath towels. Four bath mats. Many blankets and throws.

I stopped buying. No more cute polar bear flannel sheets on sale in Jan.

I stopped buying bath and body products and used what I had up. Yes I toughed out some and gave away some. I took my fry baby to the office with a 'take me' note on it.

I agree you can get rid of half at first then do another pass. I am down to where I like it now except for a few things in the basement.

I tried a resale shop but it was too much hassle and very little money so donating and taking a tax deduction is time saver for me.

I don't have kids but I would think you could teach them that when they get a new toy they have to pick out an older toy and give it away. It teaches them charity and that some kids don't get new toys. It also teaches not to waste things.

Going through the decluttering process made me not want to shop. I don't shop for fun. I actually hate going to the mall. Even Target isn't fun anymore. If I am truly bored on a cold winter day I will either go to the gym for a long workout or spend time in the library reading magazines since I don't have subscriptions or buy books.
I am still an easy mark at the plant nursery but at least that make your yard look nice and contributes O2.


Snerdley - 09/28/10 08:57 AM [/u]

We downsized big time. We now live in a home that we own, no mortgage. Money in the bank and retirement. Less stuff and I was able to downsize my work schedule to be home with my children. It really is a "mindset" not a matter of $$. You have to decide that your time and your life is more valuable to you than any dollars and stuff you can accumulate. If you can learn to accept and be content you can get out of the rat race and have a wonderful life. I enjoy spending time walking my dog, playing with the kids, cooking, etc. I don't want or need all the trappings of wealth because they become a ball and chain around your neck.

Decide what things in life are REALLY important to you. Then, start setting your life up in a way to accomplish that. If you want more time to volunteer, do hobbies, work out, then consider what you need to do to free up this time. You can do it if you work in that direction. Many people just really enjoy the stuff money buys them so they can't understand people who desire to have less.


tomishco - 09/28/10 09:44 AM

I just naturally am a 'thrower-awayer' I hate stuff, I hate shopping. I shop to Replace things when needed, not to Add things to our home. My Mom is the same way. Things make me feel insecure, not secure. No debt and owning our home outright make me feel secure.





S - specific
M - measurable
A - attainable / achievable
R - realistic
T - time-based / tangible / trackable

[Honeylioness]

Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/28/10 05:28 PM

QOTW--What do we do to prepare for Fall/Winter in our homes and our finances?

COTW-Do a Fall/Winter task you may have left undone last year.[/b]



Ombuds_18 - 09/28/10 06:25 PM

QOTW[/b] - I’m charging utilities

COTW - Think I’ll try to get the gardener put the weed preventer on a little earlier. It 105* today so it’s a little hard to think about the fall but it’ll be here before we know it


spruby - 09/28/10 09:47 PM

QOTW--

[/b]What do we do to prepare for Fall/Winter in our homes and our finances?[/quote]

This is the time of year that in the house I start redecorating - moving furniture around, trying different combos, adding a few new touches (throw blankets, new pet pillows) - plus "fall" cleaning and purguring. From a finances standpoint I start setting up next year's excel spreadsheet - plugging in fixed expenses and estimates of income and variable expenses to see what we have to work with for the year and if there are any places in the year we need to be extra careful. Plus I look at whether we need to adjust withholding for taxes, next year's retirement contributions, and start thinking about whether medical coverage needs changing (open season)! Plus holiday prep!

COTW-Do a Fall/Winter task you may have left undone last year

We have about 10 feet of cubic stuff that needs to be dealt with, papers that need filing, shredding, odds and ends from trips that need a home, etc. Update holiday mailing lists


Honeylioness - 09/29/10 04:14 PM

QOTW-[/b]-What do we do to prepare for Fall/Winter in our homes and our finances?

Let's see - in light of my recent post about my "geekiness" I should start my annual tasks - these are things I try to have completed by November 1st:

* Check and clean the furnace filter
* Clean out the dryer "innards"
* Do a last airing out of the house
* Wash the sheers
* Vacuum drapes
* Change the batteries in the detectors
* Switch out my shower curtain
* Change the quilts hanging in the living room and dining room
* Start cleaning up garden and clearing out the planters
* Set out area rugs in bedrooms
* Take a look at the items collected in my "gift bin" and finish my holiday shopping
* Figure out reverse timelines to ship items including baked goods
* Set a date to make fruitcake
* Empty emergency water jugs (use to water plants, flush toilets etc), check bottles for leaks or soiling then re-fill.
* Make jam/jelly/syrup
* Start looking at budget goals for next year
* Sort through paperwork, file or shred, make sure tax documents and receipts to date are accounted for
* Determine year end charitable giving amount and recipient organization


COTW-Do a Fall/Winter task you may have left undone last year.

* I am trying to track down a plumbing supply business that will sell to the public and not just contractors. And I am not pleased being told by several men that they will only sell me the anode rod for my water heater IF I pay them to install it. Morons - it's ten minutes and a wrench - definitely NOT worth paying a plumber $150 to do

[Honeylioness]

TakeAHikeInNC - 09/23/10 08:06 PM [/u]

Question:

One thing I left off last week’s COTW was the fact that, when I recently projected my cash flow out through the end of 2011, I included in my irregular spending a donation to a charity that a very dear friend does fundraising for each year. He participates in 1-3 events (same charity, same event just in different cities) every year, and I get a form letter from him every year asking for the donations he needs to raise in order to be able to participate (and fly around the country in the process). The thing is, I plan my charitable giving to the agencies I care about and want to support. I have very mixed feelings about these walk-a-thon types of fundraising events my friend is participating in. I am also very ambivalent about the charity he’s fundraising for and it is NOT one I would choose to give to. On the other hand, I love this friend dearly, the charity does mean a lot to him, and he gets sooooo much joy through his participation.

Does it make me a horrible person that this situation irks me to no end? I feel like I’m being a bad friend if I don’t send him a sizeable check each year (and I added the donation to next year’s cash flow/spending plan with the hope that if it is planned, I’ll be able to give it with much less resentment and a happier heart). I want to support him, but I hate feeling like my value as a friend is in part measured on how much money I’ll send him every year.

How do others feel about these kinds of events? How have or would you deal with this kind of request? If you participate in these types of fundraisers (and I recognize they can be a very successful way to raise funds that some very worthwhile charities would otherwise not get), how do you go about making the request for donations, and how do you feel about people who do not donate?


spruby - 09/23/10 08:20 PM

Takeahike - my DH ran the marine corp marathon and did it through a local fund raising group - he sent out letters to raise the money and was fortunate to raise more than the minimum (the minimum was also decreased if you got someone - me -to volunteer to man water stations during the training runs). He was very grateful for all donations (regardless of size - there were a few in the $10-$20 range and he had to raise ~$2k). I asked what he thought about people not donating and he was completely fine with it. His theory was this was his choice - to do the run this way and to raise money - if people wanted to help support him - that was a fantastic - but he was ready to donate himself any additional money necessary.

He ran the marathon to celebrate his recover from serious medical issues and chose the group he did because of their record in the community and friends who were involved with the group. I bet your friend is happy with any amount you donate and - unless he says otherwise - doesn't measure your friendship by it. If he does measure your friendship by donation - well then you have a different issue. Also, can you think of it as just a gift to a friend to support his travel to do something he loves?

BTW - in my opinion - like all charities - some of those are great and some waste an enormous amount on overhead. Charity Navigator has ratings of groups and you might want to check them out there - word of caution - you may feel better about giving because it is highly rated or it may inspire you to tell your friend you won't donate because they spend too much on overhead and not enough on the cause. It is a great place to check out lots of groups.


SES_Books - 09/23/10 08:36 PM

Charities--One of the best things about retiring is that when I am solicited for donations to/for events or charities that I may have sort of grudgingly supported in the past due to social pressures, I can now respond "I have to live on a fixed income now and am not able to contribute" then contribute to things I feel strongly about.


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 09/23/10 08:59 PM

TakeAHike, This is from the hopelessly spineless Sharing so for what it's worth...I say if it irks you, you should feel completely free to back away. Some rotate charities. I think moneysquirrel does this.


[/u]shanendoah - 09/23/10 10:32 PM[/u]

Charitable giving:[/u] I have a friend who does some great charity work that I believe in, but it comes with conditions for the participants that I can not support, so I don't give her money for it. It was initially a very hard decision for me, because I know she believes strongly in what she is doing, but I had to go with my conscience in the matter.