Post by Honeylioness on Aug 9, 2010 15:24:47 GMT -5
Honeylioness - 08/09/10 04:40 PM
*Getting on my soapbox for a moment*[/b][/i]
As we are all women here I have something to get off my chest.
I am sure most of you are familiar with the beginning of the "Women's Lib" movement and the work they did to try and get more equality in the areas of work, pay and housing. Heck, I remember when my parents purchased their first house in 1974 and my mother was extremely peeved because the mortgage papers read Mr. J R D et ux. My mother went to the bank and got in their face saying she was NOT et ux (which is Latin for and spouse) but R.A.(V) D and as SHE was the one who paid all the bloody bills she d** well wanted her name on the mortgage!!!! Of course this was also around the same time she looked at taking some night classes at the local college and was told she would need her husband to come in and "give his permission".
But I digress ....
What has my dander up today, and is something I stewed over a bit this weekend, is the latest book and comments from French Feminist and Author Elisabeth Badinter that I heard on the BBC Friday evening. She claims that the new "green movement" is really just another way "they" have come up with to keep women at home and out of the the workforce.
She said that this "trend" towards being environmentally conscious, breastfeeding, cloth diapers, recycling and making your own baby food is not about a woman choosing to do those things for her child/family/world - but they have been foisted on women in order to make them feel so guilty for not doing these things that they cave and quit their jobs to stay home and strive to be the "perfect" mother instead.
REALLY?
Women as a gender are ALL that weak minded and easily led like sheep into this nefarious and dangerous plot? I'm sorry Liz - but I think you have been drinking too much of the company kool-aid.
I am not denying that the media does have a long history of trying to push people to think or buy this way or that. But aren't most women smart enough to distinguish between publicity hype and their own truth? Yes, if I have children I would want to primarily cloth diaper. Am I going to have a melt down if while on a trip we run out of clean nappies and I have to buy some emergency disposables? ...No.
And if I choose to have a compost pile and use the contents to help my garden does this mean I am demonstrating a form of gender slavery foisted upon me by some Orwellian agency looking to keep me oppressed and ignorant? Not hardly. Perhaps I really just hated throwing into a landfill all that potential, and essentially "free", fertilizer. And by separating my recycling as well I thereby also reduce the amount of bags my household puts out each week for pick up - which in turn lowers the amount I pay each quarter.
Gee - I guess I should have seen that instead of my choosing to be frugal I was really just succumbing to a plot intended to strip me of my free will.
One of Ms. Badinter's supporters, Sabine Salmon, president of the association Femmes Solidaires, said that during school visits over the past two years her employees had noticed more and more French schoolgirls expressing a desire to stay at home. "It's a very worrying indicator," she said.
Hold on a minute. Perhaps kids are reacting to the overall sense of insecurity many societies are going through about the job market and overall economic health of their country. We don't really want every girl to aspire to become a lawyer do we? Lord knows we have more than enough of those. And I find it offensive that Ms. Salmon almost seems to mock those women who do choose to be stay at home mothers.
Which I guess brings me to the crux of the matter and the one that really gets my knickers in a knot. Wasn't the "movement" supposed to be all about CHOICE??? And yet if I express my choice to be a nurse I am told I am wasting my talents, that I "should" have wanted to become a doctor instead. And being a secretary or assistant is a bad job - why didn't I chose to get an MBA and start my own company?
And God forbid I should actually WANT to be a stay at home parent and can find a way with my husband to make that work. First off, the fact that I am not only married to my child's father and waited until after the wedding to become pregnant - well that clearly shows that I am too far gone to actually appreciate the Feminist Movement right?
What's burns my britches is that a lot of the more public faces of the New Feminism spout the words but then turn around with snide comments which starkly contradict the professed credo.
From what I have seen from them - it is about choice - as long as it is the choice they want you to make. And for the record - No, I don't think the E.R.A is a good idea. In my opinion it would only generate more quotas and restrictions on who companies could hire. You want to see more female engineers in U.S. companies? Then stop perpetuating the stereotype that teenage girls are too flighty to focus on subjects like math and physics. Offer more scholarships and incentives for young women to get be able to get a college degree in this area - then help them locate internships and jobs. Start making shows and movies where the girls are kick butt smart and the boys chase them in class and out rather than the cheerleaders or tight shirt wearing girls who put out.
So Ms. Steinem, Ms. Badinter and Ms. Salmon - stop making it sound as though a woman who goes to a vocational school because she loves cars and gets great satisfaction from working on them has somehow "failed" in her life because she didn't, or doesn't want to, own her own garage or chain. And Tradition should not be spoken of in the same breath you would use to describe child molesters. Some of us like who we are and our lives and really don't give a rat's sweet patootie what you think about it either. Just stop trying to ram it down the throats of our daughters, nieces and cousins.
After all society needs kindergarten teachers, and nurses, and secretaries and bank tellers. There is self esteem and pride in being a great waitress or bus driver or welder. Why do you care what makes a woman feel happy and fulfilled if it is what she really wants to do? Does it really have to mean she is under the thumb of a man if she chooses to cook for a living? I don't think so. Perhaps you should have posed the question to Julia Child or Martha Stewart. They don't strike me as the kind to meekly live under ANYONE's thumb
www.treehugger.com/files/2010/02/french-feminist-blames-green-movement-for-guilting-women-into-old-fashioned-roles.php
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8510937.stm
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/12/france-feminism-elisabeth-badinter
*******************************
dianartemis - 08/09/10 05:11 PM
I take it that's the "Lioness"?
shanendoah - 08/09/10 05:19 PM
Honey[/b]: First, I agree with you, it should be all about choice. I have no problems with women choosing to be nurses (my aunt is an amazing nurse) as long as they know that being a doctor is an option, too (well, maybe its not, financially, but that's a different argument). The concern is that many women still don't realize the choice is there.
We still raise our daughters to different behavioral expectations than we do our sons (not purposely, for the most part), and that's where the problems come in. There's a great book called "Women Don't Ask" that's about women and the salary gap - ie some of it is the fault of women, in that they don't negotiate their salaries, they don't ask for more, unlike their male counterparts. The book is about reminding women that they do have a choice in the matter.
As for the SAHM, this is where it gets tricky for me. I completely support women who choose to be SAHMs. If this is a viable choice for you, and you can make it work, more power to you. At the same time, moving away from the right of an individual to choose, the more women who choose to be SAHMs, or to only work part time, etc once they become moms, the more damage is done to women in the work force who don't make those choices. Those women still get less pay and fewer promotions because of the fear that they will drop out of the workforce once Prince Charming or a bundle of joy comes along.
Is this right or fair? No, not one tiny little bit. But sadly, its true. There is still so much work to be done on changing people's attitudes.
When its an individuals' choice, thats good; when its a societal trend, maybe not so good; we need to examine and ask ourselves, once again, what are we teaching our daughters?
And while going to the extreme side of things may get moderates like you and me mad at them, it also gets us talking about it. Discrimination, in any form, can not be fought in silence. Sometimes it takes pushing for a mile to get the inch that really matters.
MuttleynFelix - 08/09/10 05:21 PM
Ok, Honey you had me right there that this lady is a kook. Who says you can't breastfeed, cloth diaper, and make your own baby food and work full time? I do. I know I have a SAHD as a husband and while each of these things ads up to a little bit of time each day and maybe we wouldn't be doing them if DH worked fulltime, but other than getting started BF and figuring out which of the 8 zillion brands and types of cloth diapers you like, these are not hard tasks.
I probably would. I hate disposables, but only because they leaked like crazy on us. (I know it is completely not the point, but I had to point that out).
Amen!
Angel 33 - 08/09/10 05:22 PM
Honey[/b] I love you.
azmomx3 - 08/09/10 05:34 PM
Honey[/b]: I believe it should be about choice too. For me I find great pleasure in being a SAHM. If my dd grew up and decided to get a degree and being a SAHM was what she would do with it, I would be proud and find it a compliment to her upbringing AND I would be equally proud if she chose to not be a SAHM. I'm very old fashion for this world. I have no problem being called Mrs. C....... I take pride in being my DH wife but at the same time I know who I am independently from him and I could care less what label society would like to slap on me....
SES_Books - 08/09/10 07:39 PM
Honey[/b]--I think you are preaching to the choir. I find it interesting how many men and women are choosing to "simplify" and step away from work demands in order to have a healthy family life. I am wondering how much these recessionary times are causing people to evaluate what truly makes them happy. This was mentioned in the article Sharing mentioned on MSN yesterday. It all boils down to choices.
Shannendoah made some good points about the social perceptions we are raised with. I remember the men I used to work with were very embarrassed to talk to me about our pension details and investment options (even when I could explain it better than the guy in HR) but they all showed up in the lounge when I brought homemade jelly from fruits I had gleaned in the forest served on warm homemade bread. Did I mention I was the first woman to work at my all boys school outside the four women in the cubicles in the administration offices. Most of the men didn't quite know how to treat me as I invaded their comfort zone.
reeneejune - 08/09/10 08:18 PM
Honey[/b] - Amen. That is all.
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 08/09/10 08:24 PM
Honey[/b], LOL. As the girls from the KC meet-up can tell you, I was but briefly, though frequently "under some man's thumb." It is all about choice. Who can not be in awe of azmom's pure devotion to a traditional family structure so lovingly tended to? Or Muttley's combination of traditional and contemporary, where DH is the SAHP? Or dakota, MrsL, smokey, Sheila and our other working moms of younger kids who juggle demanding work weeks with superb parenting?
My DOM was an absolute pioneer. She was Betty Friedan's soul mate. In our neighborhood, she was the only one who worked, let alone full-time, let alone at her own enterprise. When WWII ended, she fought for her right to the V.A. bill to university education and went to Wayne State in Detroit. (For newbies, both parents were USA born) We were raised from birth to get a good education and good profession because, as she darkly hinted "Never be dependent upon any man." In her graduating year at high school, she took top county honors in Calculus, Trigonometry and Algebra. Honeylioness, you would have loved her.
nitza19 - 08/09/10 09:04 PM
SAHMs/etc[/b]. - I think I'm an oddball in this regard. If I was a SAHM I would absolutely, 100% guaranteed, lose my mind. I don't know how you ladies do it. It is a skillset and a phenomenal level of patience I do not have. And my DF, as much as I adore him, would be an incompetent SAHD
(not to mention his income is like 3 times mine, so that would never work). But I am glad that I live in a time and place where that is an acceptable choice for me, because I have lived in other places where it wouldn't be.
spruby - 08/09/10 09:35 PM
Honey[/b] - I agree with you - but shanendoah has some good points. We should all be free (men and women) to do as we choose - but unfortunately society doesn't toe the line! But the reality at my work is that PEOPLE (not just moms) with kids carry a smaller case load, travel less and work more regular hours than I do. Part of it is by choice - I work hard to be considered the best in my field - but also because management gives them a pass on certain responsibilities because of their outside commitments. But someone has to pick up the load and it is usually people like me with no kids or people with older - college aged - kids. These people claim they are doing it "all" and having it "all". Only with the support of a army of others they don't acknowledge - good day care, supportive bosses, etc. My motto - I can have everything I want - just not all at the same time!
And BTW - my personal pet peeve - people who have plenty of $$$ ( I work in gov't - I know what everyone makes +/- 5k) who complain about the cost of day care and when you break down the rate to hourly - they are paying 7 to 8 dollars an hour for day care!!!! For many people that could be their full wage - but for the complainers - it is no where close to that. I know money can be tight - but sheesh - don't you want the person watching your kid to be paid a decent wage?? Give up cable or cut down the cell phone package. (400 dollars a month for cell phones, dish tv, cable and home phone may be "cheap" but isn't necessary!!)
rant over - sorry
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 08/09/10 10:06 PM
spruby[/b], Now, I must admit. What you say is true. As a teacher with grown kids, I got a lot of that from staff with little ones. "Cover for me on xxxx duty (bus, detention, etc.) as I have to get home to x, y, z." etc. etc. It does happen that one carries an extra load to alleviate the burden on colleagues with young kids. Some will take advantage of the system and your points are well taken and I appreciate your honesty. What you've talked about definitely happens.
MuttleynFelix - 08/09/10 10:37 PM
I think it is hard to raise children nowadays. There is a lot geared towards getting girls to go to college. So much so that at times it seems that boys are overlooked. You look at the top 20 of my high school class of 70 and there were only 3 boys. I also have the unique perspective of being one of a few woman in the room and often one of the youngest in an area that is very much a good ole boys club. But I seem to have the respect of the contractors and the city officials despite the fact that most people I deal with are old enough to be my parents. A couple years ago Phil did a rant about boys not being raised as to be men any more and I do agree with that to a certain extent. That is why I really encourage DH to mentor when he can and the fact that he is staying home with DS.
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 08/09/10 11:25 PM
Muttley,[/b] I agree. You've made some excellent points. Men who take an active role in parenting are richly rewarded for it. I think it came more naturally when the family farm meant a big role for everyone and kids worked alongside their parents. My first "job" was at eighteen months. I took the slop out to the trough every morning for the handful of pigs we had. I then stayed and scooped up the oatmeal mash in my little hands. I shared their breakfast, I guess, LOL. I can still close my eyes and taste the cold, creamy, grainy texture. My cousins (male and female) had clearly defined jobs from dawn until dusk on their farm and they worked very hard without complaint. Everyone pulled their weight. "Play" meant an after supper baseball game a few precious evenings mid-week in the local farm league.
mrslynch - 08/10/10 09:44 AM
honey[/b]--much of what you said reminded me of the "mommy wars", just on a grander scale. there is nothing i despise more than the mommy wars. i can't tell you how often i've had to defend my decision not to breastfeed. i have been made to feel like a terrible mother because i-gasp-fed my child formula. i have also been made to feel like a bad mother because i work, because i didn't have dd sleep in a bassinette in our room when she was a newborn, because she doesn't have name brand t-shirts and because i didn't make my own baby food. as women, it seems like no matter what we choose, another group of women will be there to put us down because we're doing it in a way that they deem unacceptable. and that's my issue. i find it sickening that people can't just let others make decisions on what's best for them and their families without interjecting their own judgments. it's also all about perception--what i may see as a forced circumstance may actually be someone's choice. without knowing all the details, how can i make any judgments? i can't. so i don't. maybe if we all just lived our own lives (especially as it pertains to career and family) without worrying so much what goes on in other people's lives, we'd all be a lot happier.
poetesse86 - 08/10/10 10:33 PM
Honeylioness[/b] - Extra points for me! And, I agree with you completely. I haven't finished college because I haven't chosen what I want to do yet. In the meantime, I'm in retail management and I'm starting a family. I can't tell you how many people think I'm just wasting my life away, when I completely disagree. I have a job where I work 35 hours a week at very good pay, an awesome boss, great benifits, and I'm able to be home every single night with my family. And that's my CHOICE. I was accepted into the best college in my state, and I stopped going because I decided there was no point in paying thousands of dollars for an education that I wasn't going to use! And you wouldn't believe the grief I get for that choice from many different people.
*Getting on my soapbox for a moment*[/b][/i]
As we are all women here I have something to get off my chest.
I am sure most of you are familiar with the beginning of the "Women's Lib" movement and the work they did to try and get more equality in the areas of work, pay and housing. Heck, I remember when my parents purchased their first house in 1974 and my mother was extremely peeved because the mortgage papers read Mr. J R D et ux. My mother went to the bank and got in their face saying she was NOT et ux (which is Latin for and spouse) but R.A.(V) D and as SHE was the one who paid all the bloody bills she d** well wanted her name on the mortgage!!!! Of course this was also around the same time she looked at taking some night classes at the local college and was told she would need her husband to come in and "give his permission".
But I digress ....
What has my dander up today, and is something I stewed over a bit this weekend, is the latest book and comments from French Feminist and Author Elisabeth Badinter that I heard on the BBC Friday evening. She claims that the new "green movement" is really just another way "they" have come up with to keep women at home and out of the the workforce.
She said that this "trend" towards being environmentally conscious, breastfeeding, cloth diapers, recycling and making your own baby food is not about a woman choosing to do those things for her child/family/world - but they have been foisted on women in order to make them feel so guilty for not doing these things that they cave and quit their jobs to stay home and strive to be the "perfect" mother instead.
REALLY?
Women as a gender are ALL that weak minded and easily led like sheep into this nefarious and dangerous plot? I'm sorry Liz - but I think you have been drinking too much of the company kool-aid.I am not denying that the media does have a long history of trying to push people to think or buy this way or that. But aren't most women smart enough to distinguish between publicity hype and their own truth? Yes, if I have children I would want to primarily cloth diaper. Am I going to have a melt down if while on a trip we run out of clean nappies and I have to buy some emergency disposables? ...No.
And if I choose to have a compost pile and use the contents to help my garden does this mean I am demonstrating a form of gender slavery foisted upon me by some Orwellian agency looking to keep me oppressed and ignorant? Not hardly. Perhaps I really just hated throwing into a landfill all that potential, and essentially "free", fertilizer. And by separating my recycling as well I thereby also reduce the amount of bags my household puts out each week for pick up - which in turn lowers the amount I pay each quarter.
Gee - I guess I should have seen that instead of my choosing to be frugal I was really just succumbing to a plot intended to strip me of my free will.
One of Ms. Badinter's supporters, Sabine Salmon, president of the association Femmes Solidaires, said that during school visits over the past two years her employees had noticed more and more French schoolgirls expressing a desire to stay at home. "It's a very worrying indicator," she said.
Hold on a minute. Perhaps kids are reacting to the overall sense of insecurity many societies are going through about the job market and overall economic health of their country. We don't really want every girl to aspire to become a lawyer do we? Lord knows we have more than enough of those. And I find it offensive that Ms. Salmon almost seems to mock those women who do choose to be stay at home mothers.
Which I guess brings me to the crux of the matter and the one that really gets my knickers in a knot. Wasn't the "movement" supposed to be all about CHOICE??? And yet if I express my choice to be a nurse I am told I am wasting my talents, that I "should" have wanted to become a doctor instead. And being a secretary or assistant is a bad job - why didn't I chose to get an MBA and start my own company?
And God forbid I should actually WANT to be a stay at home parent and can find a way with my husband to make that work. First off, the fact that I am not only married to my child's father and waited until after the wedding to become pregnant - well that clearly shows that I am too far gone to actually appreciate the Feminist Movement right?
What's burns my britches is that a lot of the more public faces of the New Feminism spout the words but then turn around with snide comments which starkly contradict the professed credo.
From what I have seen from them - it is about choice - as long as it is the choice they want you to make. And for the record - No, I don't think the E.R.A is a good idea. In my opinion it would only generate more quotas and restrictions on who companies could hire. You want to see more female engineers in U.S. companies? Then stop perpetuating the stereotype that teenage girls are too flighty to focus on subjects like math and physics. Offer more scholarships and incentives for young women to get be able to get a college degree in this area - then help them locate internships and jobs. Start making shows and movies where the girls are kick butt smart and the boys chase them in class and out rather than the cheerleaders or tight shirt wearing girls who put out.
So Ms. Steinem, Ms. Badinter and Ms. Salmon - stop making it sound as though a woman who goes to a vocational school because she loves cars and gets great satisfaction from working on them has somehow "failed" in her life because she didn't, or doesn't want to, own her own garage or chain. And Tradition should not be spoken of in the same breath you would use to describe child molesters. Some of us like who we are and our lives and really don't give a rat's sweet patootie what you think about it either. Just stop trying to ram it down the throats of our daughters, nieces and cousins.
After all society needs kindergarten teachers, and nurses, and secretaries and bank tellers. There is self esteem and pride in being a great waitress or bus driver or welder. Why do you care what makes a woman feel happy and fulfilled if it is what she really wants to do? Does it really have to mean she is under the thumb of a man if she chooses to cook for a living? I don't think so. Perhaps you should have posed the question to Julia Child or Martha Stewart. They don't strike me as the kind to meekly live under ANYONE's thumb
www.treehugger.com/files/2010/02/french-feminist-blames-green-movement-for-guilting-women-into-old-fashioned-roles.php
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8510937.stm
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/12/france-feminism-elisabeth-badinter
*******************************
dianartemis - 08/09/10 05:11 PM
I take it that's the "Lioness"?
shanendoah - 08/09/10 05:19 PM
Honey[/b]: First, I agree with you, it should be all about choice. I have no problems with women choosing to be nurses (my aunt is an amazing nurse) as long as they know that being a doctor is an option, too (well, maybe its not, financially, but that's a different argument). The concern is that many women still don't realize the choice is there.
We still raise our daughters to different behavioral expectations than we do our sons (not purposely, for the most part), and that's where the problems come in. There's a great book called "Women Don't Ask" that's about women and the salary gap - ie some of it is the fault of women, in that they don't negotiate their salaries, they don't ask for more, unlike their male counterparts. The book is about reminding women that they do have a choice in the matter.
As for the SAHM, this is where it gets tricky for me. I completely support women who choose to be SAHMs. If this is a viable choice for you, and you can make it work, more power to you. At the same time, moving away from the right of an individual to choose, the more women who choose to be SAHMs, or to only work part time, etc once they become moms, the more damage is done to women in the work force who don't make those choices. Those women still get less pay and fewer promotions because of the fear that they will drop out of the workforce once Prince Charming or a bundle of joy comes along.
Is this right or fair? No, not one tiny little bit. But sadly, its true. There is still so much work to be done on changing people's attitudes.
When its an individuals' choice, thats good; when its a societal trend, maybe not so good; we need to examine and ask ourselves, once again, what are we teaching our daughters?
And while going to the extreme side of things may get moderates like you and me mad at them, it also gets us talking about it. Discrimination, in any form, can not be fought in silence. Sometimes it takes pushing for a mile to get the inch that really matters.
MuttleynFelix - 08/09/10 05:21 PM
She said that this "trend" towards being environmentally conscious, breastfeeding, cloth diapers, recycling and making your own baby food is not about a woman choosing to do those things for her child/family/world - but they have been foisted on women in order to make them feel so guilty for not doing these things that they cave and quit their jobs to stay home and strive to be the "perfect" mother instead.
Ok, Honey you had me right there that this lady is a kook. Who says you can't breastfeed, cloth diaper, and make your own baby food and work full time? I do. I know I have a SAHD as a husband and while each of these things ads up to a little bit of time each day and maybe we wouldn't be doing them if DH worked fulltime, but other than getting started BF and figuring out which of the 8 zillion brands and types of cloth diapers you like, these are not hard tasks.
Am I going to have a melt down if while on a trip we run out of clean nappies and I have to buy some emergency disposables? ...No.
I probably would. I hate disposables, but only because they leaked like crazy on us. (I know it is completely not the point, but I had to point that out).
Why do you care what makes a woman feel happy and fulfilled if it is what she really wants to do? Does it really have to mean she is under the thumb of a man if she chooses to cook for a living? I don't think so.
Amen!
Angel 33 - 08/09/10 05:22 PM
Honey[/b] I love you.
azmomx3 - 08/09/10 05:34 PM
Honey[/b]: I believe it should be about choice too. For me I find great pleasure in being a SAHM. If my dd grew up and decided to get a degree and being a SAHM was what she would do with it, I would be proud and find it a compliment to her upbringing AND I would be equally proud if she chose to not be a SAHM. I'm very old fashion for this world. I have no problem being called Mrs. C....... I take pride in being my DH wife but at the same time I know who I am independently from him and I could care less what label society would like to slap on me....
SES_Books - 08/09/10 07:39 PM
Honey[/b]--I think you are preaching to the choir. I find it interesting how many men and women are choosing to "simplify" and step away from work demands in order to have a healthy family life. I am wondering how much these recessionary times are causing people to evaluate what truly makes them happy. This was mentioned in the article Sharing mentioned on MSN yesterday. It all boils down to choices.
Shannendoah made some good points about the social perceptions we are raised with. I remember the men I used to work with were very embarrassed to talk to me about our pension details and investment options (even when I could explain it better than the guy in HR) but they all showed up in the lounge when I brought homemade jelly from fruits I had gleaned in the forest served on warm homemade bread. Did I mention I was the first woman to work at my all boys school outside the four women in the cubicles in the administration offices. Most of the men didn't quite know how to treat me as I invaded their comfort zone.
reeneejune - 08/09/10 08:18 PM
Honey[/b] - Amen. That is all.
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 08/09/10 08:24 PM
Honey[/b], LOL. As the girls from the KC meet-up can tell you, I was but briefly, though frequently "under some man's thumb." It is all about choice. Who can not be in awe of azmom's pure devotion to a traditional family structure so lovingly tended to? Or Muttley's combination of traditional and contemporary, where DH is the SAHP? Or dakota, MrsL, smokey, Sheila and our other working moms of younger kids who juggle demanding work weeks with superb parenting?
My DOM was an absolute pioneer. She was Betty Friedan's soul mate. In our neighborhood, she was the only one who worked, let alone full-time, let alone at her own enterprise. When WWII ended, she fought for her right to the V.A. bill to university education and went to Wayne State in Detroit. (For newbies, both parents were USA born) We were raised from birth to get a good education and good profession because, as she darkly hinted "Never be dependent upon any man." In her graduating year at high school, she took top county honors in Calculus, Trigonometry and Algebra. Honeylioness, you would have loved her.
nitza19 - 08/09/10 09:04 PM
SAHMs/etc[/b]. - I think I'm an oddball in this regard. If I was a SAHM I would absolutely, 100% guaranteed, lose my mind. I don't know how you ladies do it. It is a skillset and a phenomenal level of patience I do not have. And my DF, as much as I adore him, would be an incompetent SAHD
(not to mention his income is like 3 times mine, so that would never work). But I am glad that I live in a time and place where that is an acceptable choice for me, because I have lived in other places where it wouldn't be. spruby - 08/09/10 09:35 PM
Honey[/b] - I agree with you - but shanendoah has some good points. We should all be free (men and women) to do as we choose - but unfortunately society doesn't toe the line! But the reality at my work is that PEOPLE (not just moms) with kids carry a smaller case load, travel less and work more regular hours than I do. Part of it is by choice - I work hard to be considered the best in my field - but also because management gives them a pass on certain responsibilities because of their outside commitments. But someone has to pick up the load and it is usually people like me with no kids or people with older - college aged - kids. These people claim they are doing it "all" and having it "all". Only with the support of a army of others they don't acknowledge - good day care, supportive bosses, etc. My motto - I can have everything I want - just not all at the same time!
And BTW - my personal pet peeve - people who have plenty of $$$ ( I work in gov't - I know what everyone makes +/- 5k) who complain about the cost of day care and when you break down the rate to hourly - they are paying 7 to 8 dollars an hour for day care!!!! For many people that could be their full wage - but for the complainers - it is no where close to that. I know money can be tight - but sheesh - don't you want the person watching your kid to be paid a decent wage?? Give up cable or cut down the cell phone package. (400 dollars a month for cell phones, dish tv, cable and home phone may be "cheap" but isn't necessary!!)
rant over - sorry
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 08/09/10 10:06 PM
spruby[/b], Now, I must admit. What you say is true. As a teacher with grown kids, I got a lot of that from staff with little ones. "Cover for me on xxxx duty (bus, detention, etc.) as I have to get home to x, y, z." etc. etc. It does happen that one carries an extra load to alleviate the burden on colleagues with young kids. Some will take advantage of the system and your points are well taken and I appreciate your honesty. What you've talked about definitely happens.
MuttleynFelix - 08/09/10 10:37 PM
I think it is hard to raise children nowadays. There is a lot geared towards getting girls to go to college. So much so that at times it seems that boys are overlooked. You look at the top 20 of my high school class of 70 and there were only 3 boys. I also have the unique perspective of being one of a few woman in the room and often one of the youngest in an area that is very much a good ole boys club. But I seem to have the respect of the contractors and the city officials despite the fact that most people I deal with are old enough to be my parents. A couple years ago Phil did a rant about boys not being raised as to be men any more and I do agree with that to a certain extent. That is why I really encourage DH to mentor when he can and the fact that he is staying home with DS.
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 08/09/10 11:25 PM
Muttley,[/b] I agree. You've made some excellent points. Men who take an active role in parenting are richly rewarded for it. I think it came more naturally when the family farm meant a big role for everyone and kids worked alongside their parents. My first "job" was at eighteen months. I took the slop out to the trough every morning for the handful of pigs we had. I then stayed and scooped up the oatmeal mash in my little hands. I shared their breakfast, I guess, LOL. I can still close my eyes and taste the cold, creamy, grainy texture. My cousins (male and female) had clearly defined jobs from dawn until dusk on their farm and they worked very hard without complaint. Everyone pulled their weight. "Play" meant an after supper baseball game a few precious evenings mid-week in the local farm league.
mrslynch - 08/10/10 09:44 AM
honey[/b]--much of what you said reminded me of the "mommy wars", just on a grander scale. there is nothing i despise more than the mommy wars. i can't tell you how often i've had to defend my decision not to breastfeed. i have been made to feel like a terrible mother because i-gasp-fed my child formula. i have also been made to feel like a bad mother because i work, because i didn't have dd sleep in a bassinette in our room when she was a newborn, because she doesn't have name brand t-shirts and because i didn't make my own baby food. as women, it seems like no matter what we choose, another group of women will be there to put us down because we're doing it in a way that they deem unacceptable. and that's my issue. i find it sickening that people can't just let others make decisions on what's best for them and their families without interjecting their own judgments. it's also all about perception--what i may see as a forced circumstance may actually be someone's choice. without knowing all the details, how can i make any judgments? i can't. so i don't. maybe if we all just lived our own lives (especially as it pertains to career and family) without worrying so much what goes on in other people's lives, we'd all be a lot happier.
poetesse86 - 08/10/10 10:33 PM
Honeylioness[/b] - Extra points for me! And, I agree with you completely. I haven't finished college because I haven't chosen what I want to do yet. In the meantime, I'm in retail management and I'm starting a family. I can't tell you how many people think I'm just wasting my life away, when I completely disagree. I have a job where I work 35 hours a week at very good pay, an awesome boss, great benifits, and I'm able to be home every single night with my family. And that's my CHOICE. I was accepted into the best college in my state, and I stopped going because I decided there was no point in paying thousands of dollars for an education that I wasn't going to use! And you wouldn't believe the grief I get for that choice from many different people.