Post by Honeylioness on Jun 2, 2010 9:55:54 GMT -5
nitza19 - 05/31/10 09:52 PM[/b]
Well ladies I'm glad to see May come to a close. I have no idea what happened to this month
Good news: one more paper (and one chapter to read, but that's for next week and it's easy) and I am done with my current class and get a week off! So excited. Still need to talk to the teacher of my summer class, though, and see if she'll allow me to take the class since I'll be gone (in Paris) for the first week of class and it's only a 4-week long class, lol. In any case I'm looking forward to getting back on track tomorrow and counting days. May made me feel really mentally disorganized.
Anyway, off to try and psych myself up to start on this paper. It's going to be an uncomfortable one to write, because I know I'm on the non-PC side of the argument in this case (well, not "PC" necessarily, but the issue is a current 'darling' in education and I'm against it) so I have to write carefully in order to not come off toooo offensively
But that just makes me want to put it off until the day before it's due, and I know I shouldn't do that! So I will honestly try to get a jump on it this evening.
Honeylioness - 06/01/10 10:36 AM
nitza [/b]- Now that you have aroused my curiosity I have to ask .... What is the topic of the paper you are writing?
nitza19 - 06/01/10 04:51 PM
Honey[/b] - it's about inclusion (i.e., of students w/disabilities in general education classrooms). I have most of my research (although I need to find one more outside-of-class source, on the costs of inclusion vs. not). I did lay out an outline for the paper last night too so at least I got *something* started
SES_Books - 06/01/10 06:32 PM
Nitza-[/b]-I have very definite opinions about inclusion/mainstreaming. Not necessarily the popular view. I think this will become a hot issue in education when people start looking at the dollars and cents.
nitza19 - 06/01/10 07:07 PM
SES -[/b] "the dollars and cents" is the part I need to find a source for, since most of our in-class reading talks about the psychological/social side of things. Some of the quotes are just so ridiculous when you try to apply them to a real-life teaching situation. And obviously since I work in individualized education I have a sort of unusual perspective on the issue! I'll send you my paper, if you're interested in reading it (if I ever get it done, that is, lol)
Gin1984 - 06/01/10 07:42 PM
Nitza[/b]- Are you pro or anti inclusion? Promise, I won't flame, but I would love to know and have fun in Paris.
SES_Books - 06/01/10 09:07 PM
Nitza-[/b]-I would be very interested in reading your paper! Mainstreaming is an issue I have some strong opinions about. For 30 years my school accepted almost any student who applied regardless of needs. I had worked in a special needs school one year as a librarian, therefore I was the school "expert"--no training, no experience, nothing! And NO budget for anything! We started getting some assistance about ten years ago when a friend of mine became head counselor and stepped in. The needs are becoming more and more needed in a time when budgets can barely cover the basics without letting staff go.
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 06/01/10 10:52 PM
nitza, SES_[/b], Inclusion in the classroom..for what it's worth...I am against it. Neither special needs kids nor "regular" students are served well. Inclusion for music, art, theatre, special events, absolutely. For core subjects, a big "No."
Honeylioness - 06/02/10 12:04 AM
nitza [/b]- My immediate reaction to the brief information about the topic you wrote is that for a lot of physical disabilities I don't think inclusion would be too much of an issue (i.e. wheelchair, prosethic limb etc). But if the term "disabilities" includes those kids who have severe behavioral or emotional issues I do not seen anything wrong with separate classes for kids so that their specific needs can be dealt with most appropriately.
nitza19 - 06/02/10 01:45 AM
Honey [/b]- it means everything - learning disabilities, emotional and behavioral disorders, physical disabilities, visual/hearing impairment, etc.
As for my perspective, obviously I can't be 100% pro-inclusion since I work in the most exclusionary setting possible Tongue out Inclusion does carry benefits (especially social), and we do live in an inclusive world - inclusive classrooms help prepare students with and without disabilities to live in that kind of world, theoretically (if it is implemented well and the kids aren't just giant jerks to each other anyway). But there is a limit to its effectiveness, and that limit is made even lower by the practical, day-to-day realities of actual classrooms. If you had a gen ed teacher and a special ed teacher and three paras in every classroom, along with administrative support, an unlimited budget for technology and multiple curricular models, physical classroom space for small group learning activities, and very well trained staff at all levels, then I'm sure you could work wonders with every single student that came into your classroom. But those are not the facts. Plus when you get right down to it, one style of classroom is not the right fit for all students, no matter how "progressive" and "multiple learning styles" and "collaborative" you make that classroom. Plus what about alternative educational placements - deaf schools are a good example - that provide a culture, a sense of belonging, natural communication, and a superior education for a student with those particular needs? (Not to mention having teachers that are specifically trained and highly qualified in directed and research-based methodologies?) I can take a student with dyslexia and provide intensive intervention and jump them ahead three grade levels - actually get them reading on par with their age-matched classmates. Could that student be included in a gen ed classroom? Of course. But they wouldn't make that kind of progress. Furthermore, I can do that because I am very, very well trained and have ample time and resources (and no district interference, lol). But in an inclusive classroom, I would be called upon to have that kind of expertise in every learning disability, every learning difference, every modality, every behavioral disorder, evey mental/emotional health issue, every medical health issue, and so on and so on that came into my classroom. (Inclusion proponents would say that I don't have to, because I would have support and "collaborative teaching," and to them I would say to get real.) I don't think inclusion (and I mean full inclusion here, all inclusion all the time, not just "to the greatest extent possible" as is mandated by the law and which I am perfectly on board with) is always the best education (in addition to its practical limitations), and so it is not my 'darling.'
dakota4600 - 06/02/10 10:04 AM
Nitza[/b]- While I'm not in education, I completely agree with what you are saying. So many of my friends and family are teachers and the resources just aren't there to deal with everything in the classroom. One teacher told me that you can't move much faster than the slowest child lesson wise, which causes behavior problems for those who get it and are bored waiting for the next assignment. Which causes general disruptions and slows the lessons down even further.
wvugurl26 - 06/02/10 10:31 AM
Inclusion I understand there can be many benefits to this and parents want their kids to be included (some at all costs it seems without regard to the best situation for everyone involved). I remember when this started happening in my county and honestly I think it was a huge mistake for everyone involved. Until I had options to take honors and later AP courses I felt like the standards were lowered for everyone. And I don't feel that benefited anyone. If it is just a physical disability then yes, modifications should be made to allow them to participate in regular classrooms. Those kids were fine. I graduated with a girl in a wheelchair, she was in honors classes with me.
Its the kids with developmental and other issues that brought the standards down for all of us. I feel like they also did those kids a huge disservice by putting them in regular classrooms with teachers who had no training in dealing with those issues. In my experience it seems like they are forced to teach to the level of the lowest denominator and that's a shame. Besides what honors/advanced/AP classes I could get into, I was never truly challenged academically until college. And by then I had no idea how to study. I'd never had to and its still a challenge I struggle with today.
In summary I think they are limiting everyone's potential by including these kids. The other students bc they won't be challenged as much and those with issues bc they are not getting the specialized help they need. I feel like they could achieve more if they had a program tailored to their needs. I hope other counties/school districts have had better experiences but for my family we can point to when it all went downhill and its when they shut down the special schools and threw them in regular classrooms without adequate training and preparation.
SES_Books - 06/02/10 10:49 AM
Nitza-[/b]-This issue of inclusion makes me really glad I retired when I did. I am constantly grinding my teeth when I hear how inferior most teachers are and how over paid they are, especially when they only work nine months a year (I have never met a teacher who works only nine months a year). And now they are to be educated in all areas of inclusion!?! Is anyone considering the cost of training for the teachers, especially considering the average teachers wage. I used to have students from the local college observe and do a certain number of hours of practicum in my classrooms, and so many of them would tell me by the end of their time in my classroom that they were reconsidering their major. If they were reconsidering after that limited time in the classroom I would encourage them to "consider their options." I wonder what the "burn out" rate for teachers really is? I would suspect it might go higher.
shanendoah - 06/02/10 12:18 PM
Inclusion:[/b] I agree with the social aspects on inclusion. When I was in first grade, (early 80s), the special education class used to join our class for PE and music. They joined the other 1st grade class for art and library time. And occassionally we would do special projects with them in the classroom, but they were not part of our daily class. Personally, I can only imagine how frustrating that would have been for both them and us. You still have to divide the kids up based on their classroom abilities. So instead of having seperate areas in the school, you have seperate areas in the classroom. I don't know, it just seems kind of like the idea that sometimes the lonliest place is in the middle of a crowd - just because kids are in the same physical space does not mean that they are all included.
I will note that I am very biased toward IEPs. DH and I both have incredibly different learning styles. I graduated highschool with honors and a full ride academic scholarship (which I lost two years in) while he dropped out of highschool and got his GED. He's as smart (or smarter) than I am, but he does not function well in a traditional classroom setting. We have discussed that if we have kids, we will do our best to evaluate their learning styles and will pull them out of school, if it seems like we can meet their learning needs better at home. (Though we would then need to make sure we had a plan in place for the socialization aspect, which is hugely important as well.)
Gin1984 - 06/02/10 12:53 PM
Thank you Nitza!!! I agree with you and if I have to move my children or home school them to get them the support to live up to their highest potential, not the lowest in class or the average in the class I will. My mom was told for years in grammar school "Gin is not living up to her potential and needs to stop reading books in class" yet nothing was done and the other "reward" for not reading and finishing my work early was help others (sorry was not interested) or sit there bored as I already understood the material (at least let me start on my homework while you teach everyone else, only one teach allowed that). And that was not with disabilities just the "normal" range of abilities.
nitza19 - 06/02/10 01:51 PM
wvu/gin - it's not about "lowest denominator," or "slowing down the class," it's about teaching and learning differently, and I want to clarify that, if that came across that way in my original post. Students with behavioral challenges (or learning disabilities for that matter) need not necessarily limit the "level" of cognitive understanding in a particular classroom, and inclusion should not result in a "dumbed down" classroom (an idea that students and parents would find really offensive!) That's not what I mean. But what makes a rich, productive learning environment for some students can be a disaster for others (for instance, if your classroom had to have sound amplification for a student with hearing impairment but you also had a student with sensory issues - those two accommodations are directly conflicting!). The fact that some students aren't adequately challenged is a separate (albeit also important) issue.
SES - the articles I've come across did point to higher teacher burnout rates, as well as lack of adequate training across the board. I think that all teacher education programs must include a practical introduction to learning disorders, especially if schools are going to be more inclusive, and most of them don't. I also get really offended when articles say things like "Teachers must simply think outside the box..." etc. - like we already don't? But it's funny, they say that education shouldn't be one-size-fits-all, but they want to put all the kids in one class. That's still one-size-fits-all. You're just telling the teacher of that one class to teach in 12 different ways at once, know every strategy, understand every learning challenge, teach at multiple paces and multiple levels just so kids can be the same chronological age in one room (why is this?), etc. There's only so much you can put on teachers before they quit.
red - there are lots of articles (and videos) supporting inclusion. And I am not against it, per se. BUT teachers have to be adequately trained, they have to have adequate resources (materials, physical space, technology, etc.), and they have to have support from other teachers, professionals, and administrators to make it work (particularly if they will have students with high levels of medical need, severe behavior issues, and so on). It does depend on the kids, but also on the adults, and education people love to philosophize without looking at reality
Anyway I did want to apologize for the severity of my rant - I was all worked up before bed and I think I came across a little strong. I don't want to sound like I'm one of those teachers who doesn't want "those kids" in my class - far from it, in fact I left public education specifically TO work with students with different needs. I do not think that there should be separate "regular" and "special ed" communities within a public school; nor am I against inclusion within a regular classroom - there are ways it CAN work. It's just not the way things normally do go, because the physical and monetary resources aren't there. But I am against *only inclusion* and I am against *inclusion all the time* - then again I feel that way about "typical" kids, too. I like the idea of having a social community, like a "home room," that is inclusive and rich and plays off different students' different strengths, but I don't think all students of a particular age should be in the same "grade" for a particular skill (in fact, I think that's pretty s.tupid), I don't think a particular student should necessarily be in the same "grade" for all of his/her different classes (why? neither your math nor your reading are necessarily benchmarked to your chronological age), I think students should be allowed more variation in terms of classes/programs as they go into high schools, I think ALL students should have some form of "individualized education program" in order to help them understand their own learning profiles, capitalize on their strengths, and improve in their weak areas. ALL of them should have annual goals. ALL of them should be pushed to achieve. ALL of them need support in one area or another. Oh and that one teacher can't do all that with 35 kids in one room
wvugurl26 - 06/02/10 02:11 PM
nitza [/b]I understand that you are saying many of these kids just learn differently. In my experience, after everyone was mainstreamed the quality of education in my county went way downhill. It seemed to be taught to the lowest level. For those who just learn differently I'm sure they could be mainstreamed if you have a teacher who can recognize this and adapt accordingly for those students. In my county they didn't adapt they simply lowered the standards for everyone. I can't imagine how difficult it is with a normal range of abilities in a classroom to try and challenge everyone and help them live up to their potential. I'm just saying at a point in my education, the challenge went away and I was very bored. My brother was also very bored and in true boy fashion he could be disruptive at times or flat out just didn't pay attention to a word the teacher was saying.
I definitely don't have the answers and I understand that its a nearly impossible task to challenge everyone. I just know I wasn't challenged nearly enough and there wasn't any money or interest from my parents for extra activities outside of school to challenge my siblings and me. As I've grown up through the years I've begun to understand why parents pay for private school or extra things. A friend's parents helped create a private school bc they felt the public school system in that county was sorely lacking. (same state I grew up in but different county) I am continually blown away by what his younger siblings are accomplishing and being exposed to at a young age. That school would have been a dream for my siblings and me. At the same time my parents could have never afforded the tuition there for three kids. Another problem here in and in rural areas is that the schools are able to offer so much less than the schools in bigger cities/areas. I did 1st/2nd grade where my parents went to school after my parents divorce and while it was nice to be at school with lots of relatives and other family friends, my opportunities would have been severely limited had I stayed there. They just don't have the resources and the teachers to make it happen and its sad for those kids bc I just see it as the cycle perpetuating itself.
red_wagon - 06/02/10 03:19 PM
nitza [/b]- my mom's school is great in that is it such a collaborative environment, there are several teachers and aides and special ed teachers working together with all the students. So they have the luxury of deciding if the students each year are good candidates for inclusion, and I guess next year they are not, or are beyond the limits of their resources. each group is different and they do what they can when they can. I'm not sure exactly how much specific training my mom has done, but I know she's very involved with the learning disability kids and reading levels and all that. Who knows. I do have to agree with wvugirl that when they decided to "mainstream" our history curriculum a lot of people suffered. I was luck to have AP options, but the lack of honors classes forced a lot of kids to either choose a class that was too high (AP) or too low (mainstream). Many friends did poorly because they were overchallenged or not challenged enough, etc etc. Honors would have been perfect.
SES_Books - 06/02/10 04:05 PM
50 years ago schools had a system called "tracking," the higher ability students in one class, the middle and slower students in other classrooms. The school I was in 1-3 grades used it until they had to stop. Why, I don't know. I liked it because I was kept challenged in the top group. When we went back to a regular mix I felt like i was walking through thick glue.
When I was teaching in an alternative school I would have 12-17 students grouped by reading ability, using the philosophy that reading was critical to all other subjects. In my class (the most limited skills group) I would have students age 16-21 who had fallen through the cracks of the public school system and any problem you could think of. At one time I had a class that included asperger's syndrome, almost deaf without a hearing aid, and turret's syndrome, non English speaking not to mention all of the regular behavioral problems. The only way we were as successful (quite) as we were was the small class size. In a 3 hour block of time I was allowed to spend intensive instructional time with each student as was needed. Progress and promotion to the next level was totally individualized and open ended. The teaching staff was incredibly tight and supportive of each other and the students. We didn't know there was a box we were supposed to think outside of. Some very creative teaching occurred. When "problems or issues" developed in the educational 'illuminati" and we were given "solutions" to use in the classroom things seemed not to go as smoothly. I am sorry that to learn better teaching techniques students have to become "test subjects."
Nitza--I don't suppose that you knew you would open so many cans of worms when you told us the topic of your paper.
sbcaligirl - 06/02/10 04:17 PM
School Debate: I don't know anything about the whole inclusion issue but as far as what Gin was saying about being bored at school - totally feel you on that one. I didn't have to try at all until I started taking APs in high school and simply because of the wonderful teachers I had those were some of the hardest classes I have ever taken. A few of my APs were actually harder than college classes I took later. I think it is impossible for a teacher to teach to as many levels as typically exist in classes but I know I had a lot that weren't willing to admit it and let students work on their own. I would constantly ask for extra work so that I would have something to do in class and many of my teachers wouldn't let me do anything that wasn't already assigned. The result was that I started bringing my own books to class and would read when I was done. I too got in trouble for that but luckily had understanding principals who would make the teachers allow it if I was done with my work. One thing I wish was that my parents had made an effort to find outside opportunities for me for enrichment. I did do music lessons but I would have loved to do language lessons or taken JC classes or something like that. I'm already thinking about what we'll do for DD since she appears to have inherited our genius and will no doubt be bored out of her noggin in school.
nitza19
Message #96
06/02/10 05:09 PM
I love this. Particularly the progress being individualized. Of course I'm in individualized education by trade, so that makes sense, doesn't it I think I would have liked your school, except I think that I'm just a little too shy for group teaching, even 12-16 kids. People never believe me when I say that (re: shy), but it's true! Tongue out
And yes, I actually expected a can of worms... which is the reason I'm not wanting to write the paper itself. Same can of worms, only that time I get graded for it
Angel 33 - 06/02/10 08:20 PM
School Debate[/b] Please take my thoughts on this with a grain of salt since I am only a student teacher right now, but here is my opinion. I am not against inclusion, but I do have issue with the lack of support and resources. I have no problem differentiating instruction to meet the needs of students, but it does rile my tail feathers when I am told that "so and so should not be getting special treatment just because they are EI (or whatever disability)." Uhm, yes, they do need simplification when their EI has caused their 1, 2, and 3rd grade teacher to just give up on them and they can't write a legible or coherent sentence. I have an EI student that comes to my classroom because her regular classroom teacher just couldn't deal with her or her parents anymore. I seriously CANNOT read a word she writes. I have her write out her answers, but then I have her come visit me at my desk and read her answers to me because I can't read her sentences. I then write out what she tells me her answers are so that she can see how the sentences should look. Does this take time? Absolutely, but I can't just ignore her and push her to the side. I think a lot of teachers are stuck in to the "one assessment fits all" mode. As long as the student has mastered the skill, why does it matter HOW they are assessed on that skill? I do a lot of learning centers in my classroom. Each center touches on a different learning style. I go from center to center with a clip board taking notes on how the students do at each learning center. It is important to me that I know how each of my students learn best so I can teach/give them assessments that best meet their learning styles.
Another thing that I do in my classroom is that I do a lot of peer learning or cooperative learning. If students still do not understand a skill after my guided lesson, I pair them with a student that has mastered the skill. Sometimes kids can just understand other kids better! I have a bilingual student in class that just wasn't getting a lot of things, so I paired her with another student and now she is really making progress.
I also will pull students for smaller group instruction, one on one if necessary. For students that need a greater challenge, we have research groups. I found that during instruction many students wanted to go deeper into a subject than what I could go into (either because of limited time, or I just didn't know the answer to their questions), so I made up a research group. Whenever there was a topic that they wanted to know more about, they would go to the board and sign up for it. The student would then research the topic and give an oral presentation to the class about what they have learned. It was AWESOME. The students loved it and it even encouraged some of my more challenging students to work a little harder so that they could sign up for a research project.
Ok..so I am not sure if my rambling actually answered any questions...I fear I am going to get nitza'd. I will leave this box and continue to ramble in the next box.
Angel 33 - 06/02/10 08:29 PM
SES [/b]yes, I do see signs that a few of the student teachers I work with will get burned out very quickly. I have one that only wants to teach kindergarten. She absolutely hates teaching content and you can see it in her daily attitude. She also has a habit of making fun of the special needs students in her class. I do not know if she does it to their face, but she definitely makes no secret that she hates having them in her class. She also will not go out of her way to make accommodations for her students. I have another one that just absolutely hates her class. She is in a school in a lower socioeconomic area and the students are a lot more challenging, but they still need a caring teacher that hasn't given up on them. She has mentioned several times she hates her class. That is very sad to me. I hear teachers in the teacher lounge just talking horrible about students in their classrooms. There are several seriously burnt out teachers. I understand that they are frustrated with the lack of support from the school and from parents, but it still makes me sad to listen to them talk.
azmomx3 - 06/03/10 03:56 PM
I must say how much I love this thread, especially the conversations on education. AND I will continue to say how much I love and admire teachers. Growing up education was a top priority but my parents level of education did not match my level of learning and therefore I was left to learn on my own. Fortunately my school had a gifted program and I was secluded from the rest of the population from 3rd - 8th grade. I was taught in a way that was challenging and interesting. We were able to do many hands on "projects" because our class was small in comparison to a "normal" classroom. In high school I took honors and AP classes and my experience was the same.
My first taste of regular learning was in college and I thought I was going to die of boredom in a regular classroom because of how slow the pace was. Which is why I took many of my classes during the summer or between fall and winter break (3-12 week classes instead of 26 week). Anyhow, with my DD we have a unique situation. She has an IEP for her speech but was also tested for the gifted program, both of which our school pulls her out of the classroom for. Early on in her education she has excelled and often teachers would just have her draw on the back of her assignments or read a book until the other children are done. The reason I allowed her to skip Kindergarten is because I wanted her to be challenged but even now in her current grade she is excelling at an above grade level, however her speech is not progressing as quickly. All of her teachers so far have been patient in dealing with that aspect of her learning. As the depth of her writing assignments increase the quality is decreasing because she is writing in the way she speaks. Only time will tell how much more her speech will factor into her learning or how long being in IEP will take to even things out.
In general I am against inclusion, and I am severely biased because of my own learning. I think for above average students, being in a non inclusion classroom already poses the risk of not being challenged enough but add to it the inclusion factor, those kids would not live up to their potential. (IMHO) I guess that changes when you have children with a learning disability because I would not want my dd to be left out as long as she is able to keep up academically. I am humble enough to realize when my children need to be segregated for specialized attention. It would come from the mindset of what is best for that child. When you push pride aside, I would want my child to receive the best possible education at their level and inclusion does not allow for that (on either side of the coin).
All of this rambling to say teachers have a rough job incorporating the learning styles and needs of each individual child into a melting pot style of learning. With all the red tape that teachers have to deal with, it is just amazing that our kids get an education at all. I suppose that is why home schooling is on the rise.....
AND...I think parents need to step up. I hear so many parents complain about the education system but as far as I am concerned my child's education (and everything else for that matter) is MY responsibility. DH and I choose to have our kids attend the public education system for reasons other than academic learning. Our kids are allowed to interact with other children (and adults) from all walks of life who they normally would not have the opportunity to meet. It gives them an opportunity to develop and practice our value and belief system and be a light to others. It gives them social interaction and opportunity for extra curricular activities (okay, sports). It also allows them to have and adapt to different teaching styles from the pull of teachers available.
Yes, I know that they can get these things in other formats but we truly believe that this is the plan for our children. Then there is education. During the summer we have our own system of home schooling. My kids basically repeat the main skills they have learned the previous year and start to learn the basics skills they will be introduced to in the upcoming year. They are not tied down all summer with school work. We work four days a week for only half an hour to an hour each day. We utilize our normal everyday to incorporate teaching moments and we pick a few hands on experiments to accomplish through out the summer. The challenge comes in meeting their individual interest.
I take responsibility for my childs individualized learning and growth and although I appreciate and will accept help from teachers and praise them for incorporating it during classroom time, it is up to me to make sure they are being developed. Does this make sense? For example, my dd is an avid reader. In addition to her required school reading, we have a reading system at home that includes book reports and creative writing. Skills that are taught in school but are not yet developed at her grade level. If I didn't do that then I would be failing her in not developing all the potential that comes from her current reading and writing ability, not necessarily her teachers. It allows her to be challenged in the ways she needs to be without it always coming from school.
I LOVE teachers and every year I am so excited to work with a new teacher and all the fun and creative ways of learning they bring to the table. Plus, if my child is just not getting something that is being taught to them, then isn't it my responsibility to figure out a way to help them "get it"? AGAIN, I have no answers to any questions just a bunch of rambling opinions and big heartfelt THANK YOU and HUGS to all of the teachers of the world today who have seemed to be given a bigger burden of just teaching....
SES_Books - 06/03/10 05:08 PM
AZmom--And we love parents like you![/b]
Well ladies I'm glad to see May come to a close. I have no idea what happened to this month
Good news: one more paper (and one chapter to read, but that's for next week and it's easy) and I am done with my current class and get a week off! So excited. Still need to talk to the teacher of my summer class, though, and see if she'll allow me to take the class since I'll be gone (in Paris) for the first week of class and it's only a 4-week long class, lol. In any case I'm looking forward to getting back on track tomorrow and counting days. May made me feel really mentally disorganized.Anyway, off to try and psych myself up to start on this paper. It's going to be an uncomfortable one to write, because I know I'm on the non-PC side of the argument in this case (well, not "PC" necessarily, but the issue is a current 'darling' in education and I'm against it) so I have to write carefully in order to not come off toooo offensively
But that just makes me want to put it off until the day before it's due, and I know I shouldn't do that! So I will honestly try to get a jump on it this evening.Honeylioness - 06/01/10 10:36 AM
nitza [/b]- Now that you have aroused my curiosity I have to ask .... What is the topic of the paper you are writing?
nitza19 - 06/01/10 04:51 PM
Honey[/b] - it's about inclusion (i.e., of students w/disabilities in general education classrooms). I have most of my research (although I need to find one more outside-of-class source, on the costs of inclusion vs. not). I did lay out an outline for the paper last night too so at least I got *something* started
SES_Books - 06/01/10 06:32 PM
Nitza-[/b]-I have very definite opinions about inclusion/mainstreaming. Not necessarily the popular view. I think this will become a hot issue in education when people start looking at the dollars and cents.
nitza19 - 06/01/10 07:07 PM
SES -[/b] "the dollars and cents" is the part I need to find a source for, since most of our in-class reading talks about the psychological/social side of things. Some of the quotes are just so ridiculous when you try to apply them to a real-life teaching situation. And obviously since I work in individualized education I have a sort of unusual perspective on the issue! I'll send you my paper, if you're interested in reading it (if I ever get it done, that is, lol)
Gin1984 - 06/01/10 07:42 PM
Nitza[/b]- Are you pro or anti inclusion? Promise, I won't flame, but I would love to know and have fun in Paris.
SES_Books - 06/01/10 09:07 PM
Nitza-[/b]-I would be very interested in reading your paper! Mainstreaming is an issue I have some strong opinions about. For 30 years my school accepted almost any student who applied regardless of needs. I had worked in a special needs school one year as a librarian, therefore I was the school "expert"--no training, no experience, nothing! And NO budget for anything! We started getting some assistance about ten years ago when a friend of mine became head counselor and stepped in. The needs are becoming more and more needed in a time when budgets can barely cover the basics without letting staff go.
Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 06/01/10 10:52 PM
nitza, SES_[/b], Inclusion in the classroom..for what it's worth...I am against it. Neither special needs kids nor "regular" students are served well. Inclusion for music, art, theatre, special events, absolutely. For core subjects, a big "No."
Honeylioness - 06/02/10 12:04 AM
nitza [/b]- My immediate reaction to the brief information about the topic you wrote is that for a lot of physical disabilities I don't think inclusion would be too much of an issue (i.e. wheelchair, prosethic limb etc). But if the term "disabilities" includes those kids who have severe behavioral or emotional issues I do not seen anything wrong with separate classes for kids so that their specific needs can be dealt with most appropriately.
nitza19 - 06/02/10 01:45 AM
Honey [/b]- it means everything - learning disabilities, emotional and behavioral disorders, physical disabilities, visual/hearing impairment, etc.
As for my perspective, obviously I can't be 100% pro-inclusion since I work in the most exclusionary setting possible Tongue out Inclusion does carry benefits (especially social), and we do live in an inclusive world - inclusive classrooms help prepare students with and without disabilities to live in that kind of world, theoretically (if it is implemented well and the kids aren't just giant jerks to each other anyway). But there is a limit to its effectiveness, and that limit is made even lower by the practical, day-to-day realities of actual classrooms. If you had a gen ed teacher and a special ed teacher and three paras in every classroom, along with administrative support, an unlimited budget for technology and multiple curricular models, physical classroom space for small group learning activities, and very well trained staff at all levels, then I'm sure you could work wonders with every single student that came into your classroom. But those are not the facts. Plus when you get right down to it, one style of classroom is not the right fit for all students, no matter how "progressive" and "multiple learning styles" and "collaborative" you make that classroom. Plus what about alternative educational placements - deaf schools are a good example - that provide a culture, a sense of belonging, natural communication, and a superior education for a student with those particular needs? (Not to mention having teachers that are specifically trained and highly qualified in directed and research-based methodologies?) I can take a student with dyslexia and provide intensive intervention and jump them ahead three grade levels - actually get them reading on par with their age-matched classmates. Could that student be included in a gen ed classroom? Of course. But they wouldn't make that kind of progress. Furthermore, I can do that because I am very, very well trained and have ample time and resources (and no district interference, lol). But in an inclusive classroom, I would be called upon to have that kind of expertise in every learning disability, every learning difference, every modality, every behavioral disorder, evey mental/emotional health issue, every medical health issue, and so on and so on that came into my classroom. (Inclusion proponents would say that I don't have to, because I would have support and "collaborative teaching," and to them I would say to get real.) I don't think inclusion (and I mean full inclusion here, all inclusion all the time, not just "to the greatest extent possible" as is mandated by the law and which I am perfectly on board with) is always the best education (in addition to its practical limitations), and so it is not my 'darling.'
dakota4600 - 06/02/10 10:04 AM
Nitza[/b]- While I'm not in education, I completely agree with what you are saying. So many of my friends and family are teachers and the resources just aren't there to deal with everything in the classroom. One teacher told me that you can't move much faster than the slowest child lesson wise, which causes behavior problems for those who get it and are bored waiting for the next assignment. Which causes general disruptions and slows the lessons down even further.
wvugurl26 - 06/02/10 10:31 AM
Inclusion I understand there can be many benefits to this and parents want their kids to be included (some at all costs it seems without regard to the best situation for everyone involved). I remember when this started happening in my county and honestly I think it was a huge mistake for everyone involved. Until I had options to take honors and later AP courses I felt like the standards were lowered for everyone. And I don't feel that benefited anyone. If it is just a physical disability then yes, modifications should be made to allow them to participate in regular classrooms. Those kids were fine. I graduated with a girl in a wheelchair, she was in honors classes with me.
Its the kids with developmental and other issues that brought the standards down for all of us. I feel like they also did those kids a huge disservice by putting them in regular classrooms with teachers who had no training in dealing with those issues. In my experience it seems like they are forced to teach to the level of the lowest denominator and that's a shame. Besides what honors/advanced/AP classes I could get into, I was never truly challenged academically until college. And by then I had no idea how to study. I'd never had to and its still a challenge I struggle with today.
In summary I think they are limiting everyone's potential by including these kids. The other students bc they won't be challenged as much and those with issues bc they are not getting the specialized help they need. I feel like they could achieve more if they had a program tailored to their needs. I hope other counties/school districts have had better experiences but for my family we can point to when it all went downhill and its when they shut down the special schools and threw them in regular classrooms without adequate training and preparation.
SES_Books - 06/02/10 10:49 AM
Nitza-[/b]-This issue of inclusion makes me really glad I retired when I did. I am constantly grinding my teeth when I hear how inferior most teachers are and how over paid they are, especially when they only work nine months a year (I have never met a teacher who works only nine months a year). And now they are to be educated in all areas of inclusion!?! Is anyone considering the cost of training for the teachers, especially considering the average teachers wage. I used to have students from the local college observe and do a certain number of hours of practicum in my classrooms, and so many of them would tell me by the end of their time in my classroom that they were reconsidering their major. If they were reconsidering after that limited time in the classroom I would encourage them to "consider their options." I wonder what the "burn out" rate for teachers really is? I would suspect it might go higher.
shanendoah - 06/02/10 12:18 PM
Inclusion:[/b] I agree with the social aspects on inclusion. When I was in first grade, (early 80s), the special education class used to join our class for PE and music. They joined the other 1st grade class for art and library time. And occassionally we would do special projects with them in the classroom, but they were not part of our daily class. Personally, I can only imagine how frustrating that would have been for both them and us. You still have to divide the kids up based on their classroom abilities. So instead of having seperate areas in the school, you have seperate areas in the classroom. I don't know, it just seems kind of like the idea that sometimes the lonliest place is in the middle of a crowd - just because kids are in the same physical space does not mean that they are all included.
I will note that I am very biased toward IEPs. DH and I both have incredibly different learning styles. I graduated highschool with honors and a full ride academic scholarship (which I lost two years in) while he dropped out of highschool and got his GED. He's as smart (or smarter) than I am, but he does not function well in a traditional classroom setting. We have discussed that if we have kids, we will do our best to evaluate their learning styles and will pull them out of school, if it seems like we can meet their learning needs better at home. (Though we would then need to make sure we had a plan in place for the socialization aspect, which is hugely important as well.)
Gin1984 - 06/02/10 12:53 PM
Thank you Nitza!!! I agree with you and if I have to move my children or home school them to get them the support to live up to their highest potential, not the lowest in class or the average in the class I will. My mom was told for years in grammar school "Gin is not living up to her potential and needs to stop reading books in class" yet nothing was done and the other "reward" for not reading and finishing my work early was help others (sorry was not interested) or sit there bored as I already understood the material (at least let me start on my homework while you teach everyone else, only one teach allowed that). And that was not with disabilities just the "normal" range of abilities.
nitza19 - 06/02/10 01:51 PM
wvu/gin - it's not about "lowest denominator," or "slowing down the class," it's about teaching and learning differently, and I want to clarify that, if that came across that way in my original post. Students with behavioral challenges (or learning disabilities for that matter) need not necessarily limit the "level" of cognitive understanding in a particular classroom, and inclusion should not result in a "dumbed down" classroom (an idea that students and parents would find really offensive!) That's not what I mean. But what makes a rich, productive learning environment for some students can be a disaster for others (for instance, if your classroom had to have sound amplification for a student with hearing impairment but you also had a student with sensory issues - those two accommodations are directly conflicting!). The fact that some students aren't adequately challenged is a separate (albeit also important) issue.
SES - the articles I've come across did point to higher teacher burnout rates, as well as lack of adequate training across the board. I think that all teacher education programs must include a practical introduction to learning disorders, especially if schools are going to be more inclusive, and most of them don't. I also get really offended when articles say things like "Teachers must simply think outside the box..." etc. - like we already don't? But it's funny, they say that education shouldn't be one-size-fits-all, but they want to put all the kids in one class. That's still one-size-fits-all. You're just telling the teacher of that one class to teach in 12 different ways at once, know every strategy, understand every learning challenge, teach at multiple paces and multiple levels just so kids can be the same chronological age in one room (why is this?), etc. There's only so much you can put on teachers before they quit.
red - there are lots of articles (and videos) supporting inclusion. And I am not against it, per se. BUT teachers have to be adequately trained, they have to have adequate resources (materials, physical space, technology, etc.), and they have to have support from other teachers, professionals, and administrators to make it work (particularly if they will have students with high levels of medical need, severe behavior issues, and so on). It does depend on the kids, but also on the adults, and education people love to philosophize without looking at reality
Anyway I did want to apologize for the severity of my rant - I was all worked up before bed and I think I came across a little strong. I don't want to sound like I'm one of those teachers who doesn't want "those kids" in my class - far from it, in fact I left public education specifically TO work with students with different needs. I do not think that there should be separate "regular" and "special ed" communities within a public school; nor am I against inclusion within a regular classroom - there are ways it CAN work. It's just not the way things normally do go, because the physical and monetary resources aren't there. But I am against *only inclusion* and I am against *inclusion all the time* - then again I feel that way about "typical" kids, too. I like the idea of having a social community, like a "home room," that is inclusive and rich and plays off different students' different strengths, but I don't think all students of a particular age should be in the same "grade" for a particular skill (in fact, I think that's pretty s.tupid), I don't think a particular student should necessarily be in the same "grade" for all of his/her different classes (why? neither your math nor your reading are necessarily benchmarked to your chronological age), I think students should be allowed more variation in terms of classes/programs as they go into high schools, I think ALL students should have some form of "individualized education program" in order to help them understand their own learning profiles, capitalize on their strengths, and improve in their weak areas. ALL of them should have annual goals. ALL of them should be pushed to achieve. ALL of them need support in one area or another. Oh and that one teacher can't do all that with 35 kids in one room
wvugurl26 - 06/02/10 02:11 PM
nitza [/b]I understand that you are saying many of these kids just learn differently. In my experience, after everyone was mainstreamed the quality of education in my county went way downhill. It seemed to be taught to the lowest level. For those who just learn differently I'm sure they could be mainstreamed if you have a teacher who can recognize this and adapt accordingly for those students. In my county they didn't adapt they simply lowered the standards for everyone. I can't imagine how difficult it is with a normal range of abilities in a classroom to try and challenge everyone and help them live up to their potential. I'm just saying at a point in my education, the challenge went away and I was very bored. My brother was also very bored and in true boy fashion he could be disruptive at times or flat out just didn't pay attention to a word the teacher was saying.
I definitely don't have the answers and I understand that its a nearly impossible task to challenge everyone. I just know I wasn't challenged nearly enough and there wasn't any money or interest from my parents for extra activities outside of school to challenge my siblings and me. As I've grown up through the years I've begun to understand why parents pay for private school or extra things. A friend's parents helped create a private school bc they felt the public school system in that county was sorely lacking. (same state I grew up in but different county) I am continually blown away by what his younger siblings are accomplishing and being exposed to at a young age. That school would have been a dream for my siblings and me. At the same time my parents could have never afforded the tuition there for three kids. Another problem here in and in rural areas is that the schools are able to offer so much less than the schools in bigger cities/areas. I did 1st/2nd grade where my parents went to school after my parents divorce and while it was nice to be at school with lots of relatives and other family friends, my opportunities would have been severely limited had I stayed there. They just don't have the resources and the teachers to make it happen and its sad for those kids bc I just see it as the cycle perpetuating itself.
red_wagon - 06/02/10 03:19 PM
nitza [/b]- my mom's school is great in that is it such a collaborative environment, there are several teachers and aides and special ed teachers working together with all the students. So they have the luxury of deciding if the students each year are good candidates for inclusion, and I guess next year they are not, or are beyond the limits of their resources. each group is different and they do what they can when they can. I'm not sure exactly how much specific training my mom has done, but I know she's very involved with the learning disability kids and reading levels and all that. Who knows. I do have to agree with wvugirl that when they decided to "mainstream" our history curriculum a lot of people suffered. I was luck to have AP options, but the lack of honors classes forced a lot of kids to either choose a class that was too high (AP) or too low (mainstream). Many friends did poorly because they were overchallenged or not challenged enough, etc etc. Honors would have been perfect.
SES_Books - 06/02/10 04:05 PM
50 years ago schools had a system called "tracking," the higher ability students in one class, the middle and slower students in other classrooms. The school I was in 1-3 grades used it until they had to stop. Why, I don't know. I liked it because I was kept challenged in the top group. When we went back to a regular mix I felt like i was walking through thick glue.
When I was teaching in an alternative school I would have 12-17 students grouped by reading ability, using the philosophy that reading was critical to all other subjects. In my class (the most limited skills group) I would have students age 16-21 who had fallen through the cracks of the public school system and any problem you could think of. At one time I had a class that included asperger's syndrome, almost deaf without a hearing aid, and turret's syndrome, non English speaking not to mention all of the regular behavioral problems. The only way we were as successful (quite) as we were was the small class size. In a 3 hour block of time I was allowed to spend intensive instructional time with each student as was needed. Progress and promotion to the next level was totally individualized and open ended. The teaching staff was incredibly tight and supportive of each other and the students. We didn't know there was a box we were supposed to think outside of. Some very creative teaching occurred. When "problems or issues" developed in the educational 'illuminati" and we were given "solutions" to use in the classroom things seemed not to go as smoothly. I am sorry that to learn better teaching techniques students have to become "test subjects."
Nitza--I don't suppose that you knew you would open so many cans of worms when you told us the topic of your paper.
sbcaligirl - 06/02/10 04:17 PM
School Debate: I don't know anything about the whole inclusion issue but as far as what Gin was saying about being bored at school - totally feel you on that one. I didn't have to try at all until I started taking APs in high school and simply because of the wonderful teachers I had those were some of the hardest classes I have ever taken. A few of my APs were actually harder than college classes I took later. I think it is impossible for a teacher to teach to as many levels as typically exist in classes but I know I had a lot that weren't willing to admit it and let students work on their own. I would constantly ask for extra work so that I would have something to do in class and many of my teachers wouldn't let me do anything that wasn't already assigned. The result was that I started bringing my own books to class and would read when I was done. I too got in trouble for that but luckily had understanding principals who would make the teachers allow it if I was done with my work. One thing I wish was that my parents had made an effort to find outside opportunities for me for enrichment. I did do music lessons but I would have loved to do language lessons or taken JC classes or something like that. I'm already thinking about what we'll do for DD since she appears to have inherited our genius and will no doubt be bored out of her noggin in school.
nitza19
Message #96
06/02/10 05:09 PM
SES: The only way we were as successful (quite) as we were was the small class size. In a 3 hour block of time I was allowed to spend intensive instructional time with each student as was needed. Progress and promotion to the next level was totally individualized and open ended.
I love this. Particularly the progress being individualized. Of course I'm in individualized education by trade, so that makes sense, doesn't it
I think I would have liked your school, except I think that I'm just a little too shy for group teaching, even 12-16 kids. People never believe me when I say that (re: shy), but it's true! Tongue outAnd yes, I actually expected a can of worms... which is the reason I'm not wanting to write the paper itself. Same can of worms, only that time I get graded for it
Angel 33 - 06/02/10 08:20 PM
School Debate[/b] Please take my thoughts on this with a grain of salt since I am only a student teacher right now, but here is my opinion. I am not against inclusion, but I do have issue with the lack of support and resources. I have no problem differentiating instruction to meet the needs of students, but it does rile my tail feathers when I am told that "so and so should not be getting special treatment just because they are EI (or whatever disability)." Uhm, yes, they do need simplification when their EI has caused their 1, 2, and 3rd grade teacher to just give up on them and they can't write a legible or coherent sentence. I have an EI student that comes to my classroom because her regular classroom teacher just couldn't deal with her or her parents anymore. I seriously CANNOT read a word she writes. I have her write out her answers, but then I have her come visit me at my desk and read her answers to me because I can't read her sentences. I then write out what she tells me her answers are so that she can see how the sentences should look. Does this take time? Absolutely, but I can't just ignore her and push her to the side. I think a lot of teachers are stuck in to the "one assessment fits all" mode. As long as the student has mastered the skill, why does it matter HOW they are assessed on that skill? I do a lot of learning centers in my classroom. Each center touches on a different learning style. I go from center to center with a clip board taking notes on how the students do at each learning center. It is important to me that I know how each of my students learn best so I can teach/give them assessments that best meet their learning styles.
Another thing that I do in my classroom is that I do a lot of peer learning or cooperative learning. If students still do not understand a skill after my guided lesson, I pair them with a student that has mastered the skill. Sometimes kids can just understand other kids better! I have a bilingual student in class that just wasn't getting a lot of things, so I paired her with another student and now she is really making progress.
I also will pull students for smaller group instruction, one on one if necessary. For students that need a greater challenge, we have research groups. I found that during instruction many students wanted to go deeper into a subject than what I could go into (either because of limited time, or I just didn't know the answer to their questions), so I made up a research group. Whenever there was a topic that they wanted to know more about, they would go to the board and sign up for it. The student would then research the topic and give an oral presentation to the class about what they have learned. It was AWESOME. The students loved it and it even encouraged some of my more challenging students to work a little harder so that they could sign up for a research project.
Ok..so I am not sure if my rambling actually answered any questions...I fear I am going to get nitza'd. I will leave this box and continue to ramble in the next box.
Angel 33 - 06/02/10 08:29 PM
SES [/b]yes, I do see signs that a few of the student teachers I work with will get burned out very quickly. I have one that only wants to teach kindergarten. She absolutely hates teaching content and you can see it in her daily attitude. She also has a habit of making fun of the special needs students in her class. I do not know if she does it to their face, but she definitely makes no secret that she hates having them in her class. She also will not go out of her way to make accommodations for her students. I have another one that just absolutely hates her class. She is in a school in a lower socioeconomic area and the students are a lot more challenging, but they still need a caring teacher that hasn't given up on them. She has mentioned several times she hates her class. That is very sad to me. I hear teachers in the teacher lounge just talking horrible about students in their classrooms. There are several seriously burnt out teachers. I understand that they are frustrated with the lack of support from the school and from parents, but it still makes me sad to listen to them talk.
azmomx3 - 06/03/10 03:56 PM
I must say how much I love this thread, especially the conversations on education. AND I will continue to say how much I love and admire teachers. Growing up education was a top priority but my parents level of education did not match my level of learning and therefore I was left to learn on my own. Fortunately my school had a gifted program and I was secluded from the rest of the population from 3rd - 8th grade. I was taught in a way that was challenging and interesting. We were able to do many hands on "projects" because our class was small in comparison to a "normal" classroom. In high school I took honors and AP classes and my experience was the same.
My first taste of regular learning was in college and I thought I was going to die of boredom in a regular classroom because of how slow the pace was. Which is why I took many of my classes during the summer or between fall and winter break (3-12 week classes instead of 26 week). Anyhow, with my DD we have a unique situation. She has an IEP for her speech but was also tested for the gifted program, both of which our school pulls her out of the classroom for. Early on in her education she has excelled and often teachers would just have her draw on the back of her assignments or read a book until the other children are done. The reason I allowed her to skip Kindergarten is because I wanted her to be challenged but even now in her current grade she is excelling at an above grade level, however her speech is not progressing as quickly. All of her teachers so far have been patient in dealing with that aspect of her learning. As the depth of her writing assignments increase the quality is decreasing because she is writing in the way she speaks. Only time will tell how much more her speech will factor into her learning or how long being in IEP will take to even things out.
In general I am against inclusion, and I am severely biased because of my own learning. I think for above average students, being in a non inclusion classroom already poses the risk of not being challenged enough but add to it the inclusion factor, those kids would not live up to their potential. (IMHO) I guess that changes when you have children with a learning disability because I would not want my dd to be left out as long as she is able to keep up academically. I am humble enough to realize when my children need to be segregated for specialized attention. It would come from the mindset of what is best for that child. When you push pride aside, I would want my child to receive the best possible education at their level and inclusion does not allow for that (on either side of the coin).
All of this rambling to say teachers have a rough job incorporating the learning styles and needs of each individual child into a melting pot style of learning. With all the red tape that teachers have to deal with, it is just amazing that our kids get an education at all. I suppose that is why home schooling is on the rise.....
AND...I think parents need to step up. I hear so many parents complain about the education system but as far as I am concerned my child's education (and everything else for that matter) is MY responsibility. DH and I choose to have our kids attend the public education system for reasons other than academic learning. Our kids are allowed to interact with other children (and adults) from all walks of life who they normally would not have the opportunity to meet. It gives them an opportunity to develop and practice our value and belief system and be a light to others. It gives them social interaction and opportunity for extra curricular activities (okay, sports). It also allows them to have and adapt to different teaching styles from the pull of teachers available.
Yes, I know that they can get these things in other formats but we truly believe that this is the plan for our children. Then there is education. During the summer we have our own system of home schooling. My kids basically repeat the main skills they have learned the previous year and start to learn the basics skills they will be introduced to in the upcoming year. They are not tied down all summer with school work. We work four days a week for only half an hour to an hour each day. We utilize our normal everyday to incorporate teaching moments and we pick a few hands on experiments to accomplish through out the summer. The challenge comes in meeting their individual interest.
I take responsibility for my childs individualized learning and growth and although I appreciate and will accept help from teachers and praise them for incorporating it during classroom time, it is up to me to make sure they are being developed. Does this make sense? For example, my dd is an avid reader. In addition to her required school reading, we have a reading system at home that includes book reports and creative writing. Skills that are taught in school but are not yet developed at her grade level. If I didn't do that then I would be failing her in not developing all the potential that comes from her current reading and writing ability, not necessarily her teachers. It allows her to be challenged in the ways she needs to be without it always coming from school.
I LOVE teachers and every year I am so excited to work with a new teacher and all the fun and creative ways of learning they bring to the table. Plus, if my child is just not getting something that is being taught to them, then isn't it my responsibility to figure out a way to help them "get it"? AGAIN, I have no answers to any questions just a bunch of rambling opinions and big heartfelt THANK YOU and HUGS to all of the teachers of the world today who have seemed to be given a bigger burden of just teaching....
SES_Books - 06/03/10 05:08 PM
AZmom--And we love parents like you![/b]
