Post by Honeylioness on Nov 24, 2009 10:21:37 GMT -5
MuttleynFelix - 11/24/09 10:07 AM
Honey[/b] - Oh Goddess of HR, please help me make the right choice here. I got an email today from our fired office manager. I started scanning it and she starts going off about my boss (owner of the company). So, I stopped reading it and now I don't know what to do with it. I talked with my coworkers and we're all at a loss. My boss is leaving for Thanksgiving after lunch today. So, I was thinking I would talk to him on Monday and tell him I got an email from her. Anyway, I just don't want to read it, but I think I should.
She's going off about my employer whom I have worked for for 3.5 years and trying to tell me he is not a good person which I personally know better. Plus I am in the process of working through my maternity leave with him that is beneficial to us both. I don't want to deal with her. I kept the email, but not in my inbox so that I'm not looking at it all the time and I printed off a copy to maybe have my husband read. She makes some reference to salaries (and discrimination) and so I don't want to read it and I don't want my coworkers to read it and I mentioned it to them and they agree that we don't need to go there. Sigh. I just don't want to deal with her and her unprofessionalism and drama queen. So HR, what do I do?
Honeylioness - 11/24/09 10:20 AM
Muttley:[/b] Okay, first of all BREATHE. Better? Good.
Now, as upsetting as I am sure her "flaming" is, keep in mind that this was her intent. If you want to forward it to me at quiltinglioness @ juno dot com I can take a look at it for you - it won't upset me as I am not involved in the situation at all.
You did the right thing in several ways:
1) Not deleting it. If this woman can not be reasoned with or if she begins to feel as though she is "owed" something you must have records and documentation of her escalation to protect both you and the company.
2) Not saying anything to your boss today. Good call, unless she is threatening to show up at your office with the intent of doing bodily harm what good would it do to ruin his Thanksgiving. There is nothing that can be done today that cannot wait until Monday. Besides, you are too emotional about it at the moment.
3) Printing a copy for another person to read.
4) Letting your co-workers know. You should not have to deal with this person by yourself. You may have introduced her to the company, but her success or failure is HERS alone. You owe her nothing in return.
Now, the hard part is that you should draft a response that is both firm but non-committal letting her know that if she has any thing else to say about this you are not the person to address the message to.
And yes, if you wish I can help you draft that also.
It is always upsetting when a former co-worker goes mental. But remember, unless you held a gun to your bosses head and forced him to let her go ..... NONE OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT!!!
bonbon78 - 11/24/09 10:27 AM
muttley-i agree with honey 1000%. just try to remain calm, and re-read your response 10 times before you send it. make sure you aren't coming off as emotional or upset. maybe have your dh help you with that part...take your time with this.
MuttleynFelix - 11/24/09 10:35 AM
Honey[/b] - Thanks. I copied and pasted what she sent to me and emailed it to you. I really don't want to respond to her at all. I'm glad I have done things right so far.
bonbon - I'm not going to respond to her this week. There just doesn't seem to be a point. She wants a reference, but beyond saying she worked here and tried hard. There isn't much I can say. To me it isn't worth it to try to deal with it this week.
*************************************
Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:31 AM
Honey, I copied and pasted what she sent. It was through LinkedIN which I only joined because my brother was a member of and I never actually accepted her invitation. So it might seem a little odd. Like I said, I scanned it, but didn't actually read it. Thanks for taking a look at it for me.
M (aka, Muttleynfelix)
---------------------------
LinkedIn
T. H. requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn:
M,
Hi M,
I would like to add you to my network and ask you to please give me a reference from (company) whereas I cannot get D to give me one. I am sure if I could remember how to spell T's last name and get and email to him he would. He of course knows the entire situation as to why I lost my job and I know you both know it was a personality conflict and not job performance. It has been very difficult to explain this when looking for a job why I have no references from it. It looks awful and I can't lie about on my resume whereas everyone checks your work history thru the state now. He has left me in quite a mess where this is concerned and fought my unemployment, so it is imperative I find a job soon. I have never been fired from a job in my entire life. So I'm sure you know how incredibly put off I am with a man that claims to be such a good person and then leaves a widowed mom with 2 kids to support with no income and refuses to give me a reference. Especially considering I corrected and balanced and entire years worth of
Quickbooks & straightened out all of his employment tax issues without him having to pay a single fine. I'm very close to losing my house and all over one job I took. I hope you are doing well and your pregnancy is exciting. Please tell everyone hello for me. I would love to share a couple of things with you, M, what you do, you deserve tens of thousands more a year than what you are getting paid. In my eyes I call it salary discrimination based on your sex. This was an obvious observation from what I did on my end. You are the most qualified person in that office besides D himself and you deserve to be paid accordingly.
Sincerely,
T H
------------------------
Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 9:36 AM
M, thanks for sending this. Can you refresh my memory as to why she was let go? Was it a personality conflict or was it that the business is so small you really could not afford the extra salary? (I seem to remember something along those lines)
I will work up some draft responses for you today and tomorrow. However at first glance it seems she is taking a business decision too personally and blaming your boss (D?) for her problems. She is also using language that can be termed "emotional blackmail" which further weakens any legitimate claim she might have had.
Don't let this weigh on your mind or distract you from your Thanksgiving plans. Remember - breathe.
~Mel
---------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:51:39 -0800 (PST)
M,
It was a personality conflict. From the beginning she and the boss (D) didn't quite mesh and she never seemed to make an effort to mesh with him (IMO). She was very unprofessional (IMO) and from the otherside of the office I knew her side of every phone conversation. When she was let go, we ended up without an office manager for a week and then we hired someone new (who is professional and competant). Honestly, my assessment of her (T) at this point is that she is a drama queen. Everything was a HUGE deal to her and it honestly didn't mesh well with the rest of the office (it was always all about her). There was never anything specific to me, but she and D really butted heads a number of times.
Thank you for helping me with this. Sometimes I'm not the best at verbalizing things (which is why I draw pictures and have charts and graphs in my job).
M
-----------------
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:02 AM
LOL .... Okay - so you are more Right Brain - no problem. I did think it was more her not "meshing" with the group rather than her skills. Thanks for the input. I also remember she was only there about 60 days or so yes?
I currently have four Drama Queens in our physical location of 135 people with another who seems to be in-training. *RME* I can empathize with it being NO FUN.
--------------------------------
Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:13 AM
Yeah, she started August 21st (I think) and was let go October 9. Her skills weren't the best we had ever seen, but she was mostly learning about being an office manager, so that wouldn't have been that big of deal if she could have gotten along with the boss.
I can't imagine having to deal with more than one drama queen. YIKES. There are benefits of working in a very small office.
---------------------------------
Wed, Nov 25, 2009 11:39 AM
Okay, first off - T is practically demanding a written reference. That practice has mostly gone by the wayside and is usually only done for long standing (i.e. 15+ years) employees who are moving on due to a plant closing or business re-organization. She worked for you under six months - it is not reasonable to expect a letter of
recommendation - which is what I think she really wants.
By law anyone checking references are only entitled to the following information: date of hire, last day worked, and title/job description. They cannot even ask, or get, pay amounts without a written release from the former employee. The majority of companies I work with will not even volunteer nor answer any question as to whether we would re-hire a worker.
As to her inference that this is hurting her when looking for a job - I find that hard to believe that a gap of a few months, especially in this economy, is even on most recruiters radar.
I would find out though if your boss did challenge her unemployment or merely did not respond to their letter of inquiry. If you do not respond that is tacit approval for the person to start getting unemployment. If she was out of work for an extended period before she came to your company she may just have exhausted her benefits which would have nothing to do with your company. If he fired her then she should be eligible immediately
for UI, if not she may have to wait 6-8 weeks depending on the state for her UI benefits to start from the day she applied.
If she was a friend of mine, or more mature and able to deal, I would tell her that she should just reply to any question as to why she left with a comment such as "The working relationship with the manager was extremely challenging". Hell, people have personality conflicts all the time, it is not a death knell for your career.
Ignore her comments about being a widow, a mom, and her mortgage. None of that is relevant and she only mentioned it as a means of emotionally blackmailing you to be on her side. Don't fall for it.
I would also not respond to her perception that you are being taken advantage of in regards to your salary. She is just again trying to set shit afire. It is none of her business and IF you felt it was an issue than it would be your responsibility to address it.
Neither you nor your co-workers are under any obligation to contact her or provide your name as a reference UNLESS you feel strongly that you want to. I usually discourage co-workers from being references, and when checking them for potential employees don't place as much stock in them as I do for those from supervisors or department heads.
I would recommend that D send her a generic letter, not an e-mail, but a letter - preferably Certified Return Receipt Requested. I will attach a draft of what it would say if I was doing this in his shoes.
Hang in there. If she sends you another message remember to print it and keep the electronic if you can as documentation. It is best if it is date stamped as well.
Feel free to share any, or all, of this e-mail with D.
Have a great Thanksgiving and good luck Monday when you tell D about this woman's rant. Remember - none of this is your fault. She burned her own bridge.
~M
-------------------------------------
Wed, Nov 25, 2009 12:00 PM
Thanks. I know this isn't my fault and I'm actually quite mad at her for trying to pull me into it. (Which of course raised my blood pressure yesterday at my doctor's appointment and I had contractions off and on yesterday afternoon... which just made me
more mad. I just feel like how dare she ask this of me and then go off about someone I think very highly of). Anyway, I know none of that is relevant, but it still bugs me.
She was off work since February due to downsizing at a local company. I know she mentioned to my coworker in a text after she was fired that if she had been let go the week before she would have gotten UE at the old rate (which was significantly more than
what she made here) and implied that D did that on purpose.
Anyway, thank you for offering your advice on this. It helps a lot and I think it will help D as well if he feels the need to address this further.
Thanks again and have a wonderful Thanksgiving (if I lived closer, we would have RSVPed and come to your THanksgiving.
.
M
MuttleynFelix - 12/02/09 05:32 PM
Honey[/b] - I meant to tell you the resolution to the Tracy thing (crazy ex office manager). I decided I was just going to ignore her and delete my linkedin account (since I don't use it anyway). I then told my boss about it (on Monday) and he took the copy of the email and just put it her file. We had a nice chat about it and he felt bad she tried to put me in the middle of it. She is going to receive unemployment even though she was on probation. Missouri is an at will state, but for some reason screwing up billing and not being reliable wasn't reason enough for the unemployment people. Anyway, thank you so much for your time and effort. Hopefully, it won't reappear, but at this point I feel that at 34.5 weeks pregnant, if you want a response from me in some drama, you are just SOL. I just have no patience right now for stupity (hers or contractors).
Honey[/b] - Oh Goddess of HR, please help me make the right choice here. I got an email today from our fired office manager. I started scanning it and she starts going off about my boss (owner of the company). So, I stopped reading it and now I don't know what to do with it. I talked with my coworkers and we're all at a loss. My boss is leaving for Thanksgiving after lunch today. So, I was thinking I would talk to him on Monday and tell him I got an email from her. Anyway, I just don't want to read it, but I think I should.
She's going off about my employer whom I have worked for for 3.5 years and trying to tell me he is not a good person which I personally know better. Plus I am in the process of working through my maternity leave with him that is beneficial to us both. I don't want to deal with her. I kept the email, but not in my inbox so that I'm not looking at it all the time and I printed off a copy to maybe have my husband read. She makes some reference to salaries (and discrimination) and so I don't want to read it and I don't want my coworkers to read it and I mentioned it to them and they agree that we don't need to go there. Sigh. I just don't want to deal with her and her unprofessionalism and drama queen. So HR, what do I do?
Honeylioness - 11/24/09 10:20 AM
Muttley:[/b] Okay, first of all BREATHE. Better? Good.
Now, as upsetting as I am sure her "flaming" is, keep in mind that this was her intent. If you want to forward it to me at quiltinglioness @ juno dot com I can take a look at it for you - it won't upset me as I am not involved in the situation at all.
You did the right thing in several ways:
1) Not deleting it. If this woman can not be reasoned with or if she begins to feel as though she is "owed" something you must have records and documentation of her escalation to protect both you and the company.
2) Not saying anything to your boss today. Good call, unless she is threatening to show up at your office with the intent of doing bodily harm what good would it do to ruin his Thanksgiving. There is nothing that can be done today that cannot wait until Monday. Besides, you are too emotional about it at the moment.
3) Printing a copy for another person to read.
4) Letting your co-workers know. You should not have to deal with this person by yourself. You may have introduced her to the company, but her success or failure is HERS alone. You owe her nothing in return.
Now, the hard part is that you should draft a response that is both firm but non-committal letting her know that if she has any thing else to say about this you are not the person to address the message to.
And yes, if you wish I can help you draft that also.
It is always upsetting when a former co-worker goes mental. But remember, unless you held a gun to your bosses head and forced him to let her go ..... NONE OF THIS IS YOUR FAULT!!!
bonbon78 - 11/24/09 10:27 AM
muttley-i agree with honey 1000%. just try to remain calm, and re-read your response 10 times before you send it. make sure you aren't coming off as emotional or upset. maybe have your dh help you with that part...take your time with this.
MuttleynFelix - 11/24/09 10:35 AM
Honey[/b] - Thanks. I copied and pasted what she sent to me and emailed it to you. I really don't want to respond to her at all. I'm glad I have done things right so far.
bonbon - I'm not going to respond to her this week. There just doesn't seem to be a point. She wants a reference, but beyond saying she worked here and tried hard. There isn't much I can say. To me it isn't worth it to try to deal with it this week.
*************************************
Tue, Nov 24, 2009 10:31 AM
Honey, I copied and pasted what she sent. It was through LinkedIN which I only joined because my brother was a member of and I never actually accepted her invitation. So it might seem a little odd. Like I said, I scanned it, but didn't actually read it. Thanks for taking a look at it for me.
M (aka, Muttleynfelix)
---------------------------
T. H. requested to add you as a connection on LinkedIn:
M,
Hi M,
I would like to add you to my network and ask you to please give me a reference from (company) whereas I cannot get D to give me one. I am sure if I could remember how to spell T's last name and get and email to him he would. He of course knows the entire situation as to why I lost my job and I know you both know it was a personality conflict and not job performance. It has been very difficult to explain this when looking for a job why I have no references from it. It looks awful and I can't lie about on my resume whereas everyone checks your work history thru the state now. He has left me in quite a mess where this is concerned and fought my unemployment, so it is imperative I find a job soon. I have never been fired from a job in my entire life. So I'm sure you know how incredibly put off I am with a man that claims to be such a good person and then leaves a widowed mom with 2 kids to support with no income and refuses to give me a reference. Especially considering I corrected and balanced and entire years worth of
Quickbooks & straightened out all of his employment tax issues without him having to pay a single fine. I'm very close to losing my house and all over one job I took. I hope you are doing well and your pregnancy is exciting. Please tell everyone hello for me. I would love to share a couple of things with you, M, what you do, you deserve tens of thousands more a year than what you are getting paid. In my eyes I call it salary discrimination based on your sex. This was an obvious observation from what I did on my end. You are the most qualified person in that office besides D himself and you deserve to be paid accordingly.
Sincerely,
T H
------------------------
Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 9:36 AM
M, thanks for sending this. Can you refresh my memory as to why she was let go? Was it a personality conflict or was it that the business is so small you really could not afford the extra salary? (I seem to remember something along those lines)
I will work up some draft responses for you today and tomorrow. However at first glance it seems she is taking a business decision too personally and blaming your boss (D?) for her problems. She is also using language that can be termed "emotional blackmail" which further weakens any legitimate claim she might have had.
Don't let this weigh on your mind or distract you from your Thanksgiving plans. Remember - breathe.
~Mel
---------------------------------
Date: Tue, 24 Nov 2009 07:51:39 -0800 (PST)
M,
It was a personality conflict. From the beginning she and the boss (D) didn't quite mesh and she never seemed to make an effort to mesh with him (IMO). She was very unprofessional (IMO) and from the otherside of the office I knew her side of every phone conversation. When she was let go, we ended up without an office manager for a week and then we hired someone new (who is professional and competant). Honestly, my assessment of her (T) at this point is that she is a drama queen. Everything was a HUGE deal to her and it honestly didn't mesh well with the rest of the office (it was always all about her). There was never anything specific to me, but she and D really butted heads a number of times.
Thank you for helping me with this. Sometimes I'm not the best at verbalizing things (which is why I draw pictures and have charts and graphs in my job).
M
-----------------
Date: Tuesday, November 24, 2009, 10:02 AM
LOL .... Okay - so you are more Right Brain - no problem. I did think it was more her not "meshing" with the group rather than her skills. Thanks for the input. I also remember she was only there about 60 days or so yes?
I currently have four Drama Queens in our physical location of 135 people with another who seems to be in-training. *RME* I can empathize with it being NO FUN.
--------------------------------
Tue, Nov 24, 2009 11:13 AM
Yeah, she started August 21st (I think) and was let go October 9. Her skills weren't the best we had ever seen, but she was mostly learning about being an office manager, so that wouldn't have been that big of deal if she could have gotten along with the boss.
I can't imagine having to deal with more than one drama queen. YIKES. There are benefits of working in a very small office.
---------------------------------
Wed, Nov 25, 2009 11:39 AM
Okay, first off - T is practically demanding a written reference. That practice has mostly gone by the wayside and is usually only done for long standing (i.e. 15+ years) employees who are moving on due to a plant closing or business re-organization. She worked for you under six months - it is not reasonable to expect a letter of
recommendation - which is what I think she really wants.
By law anyone checking references are only entitled to the following information: date of hire, last day worked, and title/job description. They cannot even ask, or get, pay amounts without a written release from the former employee. The majority of companies I work with will not even volunteer nor answer any question as to whether we would re-hire a worker.
As to her inference that this is hurting her when looking for a job - I find that hard to believe that a gap of a few months, especially in this economy, is even on most recruiters radar.
I would find out though if your boss did challenge her unemployment or merely did not respond to their letter of inquiry. If you do not respond that is tacit approval for the person to start getting unemployment. If she was out of work for an extended period before she came to your company she may just have exhausted her benefits which would have nothing to do with your company. If he fired her then she should be eligible immediately
for UI, if not she may have to wait 6-8 weeks depending on the state for her UI benefits to start from the day she applied.
If she was a friend of mine, or more mature and able to deal, I would tell her that she should just reply to any question as to why she left with a comment such as "The working relationship with the manager was extremely challenging". Hell, people have personality conflicts all the time, it is not a death knell for your career.
Ignore her comments about being a widow, a mom, and her mortgage. None of that is relevant and she only mentioned it as a means of emotionally blackmailing you to be on her side. Don't fall for it.
I would also not respond to her perception that you are being taken advantage of in regards to your salary. She is just again trying to set shit afire. It is none of her business and IF you felt it was an issue than it would be your responsibility to address it.
Neither you nor your co-workers are under any obligation to contact her or provide your name as a reference UNLESS you feel strongly that you want to. I usually discourage co-workers from being references, and when checking them for potential employees don't place as much stock in them as I do for those from supervisors or department heads.
I would recommend that D send her a generic letter, not an e-mail, but a letter - preferably Certified Return Receipt Requested. I will attach a draft of what it would say if I was doing this in his shoes.
Hang in there. If she sends you another message remember to print it and keep the electronic if you can as documentation. It is best if it is date stamped as well.
Feel free to share any, or all, of this e-mail with D.
Have a great Thanksgiving and good luck Monday when you tell D about this woman's rant. Remember - none of this is your fault. She burned her own bridge.
~M
-------------------------------------
Wed, Nov 25, 2009 12:00 PM
Thanks. I know this isn't my fault and I'm actually quite mad at her for trying to pull me into it. (Which of course raised my blood pressure yesterday at my doctor's appointment and I had contractions off and on yesterday afternoon... which just made me
more mad. I just feel like how dare she ask this of me and then go off about someone I think very highly of). Anyway, I know none of that is relevant, but it still bugs me.
She was off work since February due to downsizing at a local company. I know she mentioned to my coworker in a text after she was fired that if she had been let go the week before she would have gotten UE at the old rate (which was significantly more than
what she made here) and implied that D did that on purpose.
Anyway, thank you for offering your advice on this. It helps a lot and I think it will help D as well if he feels the need to address this further.
Thanks again and have a wonderful Thanksgiving (if I lived closer, we would have RSVPed and come to your THanksgiving.
.M
MuttleynFelix - 12/02/09 05:32 PM
Honey[/b] - I meant to tell you the resolution to the Tracy thing (crazy ex office manager). I decided I was just going to ignore her and delete my linkedin account (since I don't use it anyway). I then told my boss about it (on Monday) and he took the copy of the email and just put it her file. We had a nice chat about it and he felt bad she tried to put me in the middle of it. She is going to receive unemployment even though she was on probation. Missouri is an at will state, but for some reason screwing up billing and not being reliable wasn't reason enough for the unemployment people. Anyway, thank you so much for your time and effort. Hopefully, it won't reappear, but at this point I feel that at 34.5 weeks pregnant, if you want a response from me in some drama, you are just SOL. I just have no patience right now for stupity (hers or contractors).