April 2009

[Honeylioness]

01 April 2009


Question of the Week (QOTW): With a number of new people on board tell us what has this thread done for your life? Have you paid off credit cards because of it? Have you saved a certain amount because of it? Give concrete details if you are comfortable.

Challenge of the Week (COTW): Put some money in your EF or savings, try for at least $20 if possible. If not every dollar helps!

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QOTW: Let me see. I had worked hard to be CC free for a couple of years before I found this Board and more specifically this group. One of the things I would say that I have gained from this group (besides some new friends) is a sense of support and accountability. I joined the group in July of 2008 and within a couple of months had picked up some ideas and tips on how to 1) track my spending, 2) worked out the first real budget I have ever had that works for me, and 3) identified where my money was "disappearing" to.

Keeping track for me has been the biggest change and the greatest tool. In the last 6-7 years my savings account was more of a cushion against running out of funds to pay the light bill rather than true "savings". But for the first time in a long long time, when I received my IRS refund this year I still had more than half of LAST year's refund still in my savings account. That for me was huge! I actually went through a bit of a panic last year about using any of those funds for my annual vacation - I almost lost sight of the idea that I had been saving for exactly that reason.

This is not to say that I no longer impulse buy or have 6 months worth of pay in an Emergency Fund. But I can see where and what I need to focus on to get myself in a better position this time next year.

COTW: For several years I have not spent any coins and any change I got back from a transaction, along with random coins found on the street, were put into a container in the kitchen each night. Then when it gets heavy I would dump them onto the kitchen table and roll them. When I first started doing this I would be depositing anywhere from $400-$700 a year into my savings account. However I have noticed that in the last year or so it is only about $10-$20 a month. At first I was puzzled as to why it was so low - then it hit me ..... DUH!!!!! It is because I am no longer spending all the cash in my wallet! So if I am spending less than of course I will have less coin to roll.

I rolled what I have thus far today and it is just over $50 which I will be putting into my savings account in a couple of weeks when I am down near the town where my bank is located


April 07, 2009

Question of the Week (QOTW): Share some of your knowledge with us, be it an investing tip, a saving tip, how to make your own laundry soap, cleaners, whatever! We all have valuable knowledge others will find interesting and maybe even use!

Challenge of the Week (COTW): Do something good, this can be picking up someone else's trash, donating to a shelter or food shelf, helping someone somehow. Let's get some good Karma flowing!

You can contribute to the QOTWs and COTWs just e-mail me at mittenkittenwir @ gmail.com no spaces. We also have a blog I can e-mail the link if anyone would like it. You can also google controlled-nospend I used blogspot. I have links to people's blogs who have requested they be linked, lots of recipes and websites on there.

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Honeylioness - 04/08/09 01:22 PM

Question of the Week (QOTW): Let me see - I know I have already bored most of the long time posters here with my weird litany of frugal ideas - and YES I DO make my own laundry detergent. If any of the newer members are interested there are some lists Here

So what else can I share? I think that for me what ultimately it comes down to is a shift in not only habits but perception. The ability to stop, breathe and objectively look at a potential purchase and then determine if this is a WANT or a NEED. (For purposes of this discussion I will make the caveat that I am not including items such as food, medical care or emergencies to the items mentioned below.)

If it is a NEED - must it be acquired right this moment? Can it wait a day or so to see if perhaps this item can be found at a lower cost or would returning home and then back to this location not make it cost effective to do so? And sometimes while the item may truly be a NEED it doesn't necessarily mean it is a need at that precise moment.

For example: If my refrigerator dies, Yes - that is a NEED in the moment. Which is not to say I would not spend 30-60 minutes online looking at various models and store prices. However, if my dryer croaked I would be less likely to run out that week and replace it. I have the option of hanging my laundry in my laundry room to dry, and in fact do that voluntarily from about April until November. So while it may still be a NEED I would have time to save up additional funds to pay for it in full - and wait for a good sale.

If it is a WANT - then why do I want it? Because it is pretty? On sale? A great color? Will add to a current collection of similar items? Just because? Or am I just bored/stressed/hungry?

I think we all deserve to acquire things we want just because we want them. Where I have had to learn the hard way to look at this is to understand when treating myself in the moment actually harms me in the long run. Buying that great hand-painted Victorian-era vase that caught my eye in the Antique Store window and charging it to a credit card when I know that I will only be able to make the minimum payment this month and ultimately this $200 purchase will cost me $300 in fees, interest and the stress of not being able to pay the bill in full ...... that is no longer worth it to me.

This is why I have two specific line items in my budget spreadsheet called "Goodwill" and "Fabric/Crafts". I am cutting the amount allocated each week - but for now will not be eliminating these line items. And at the moment I can still treat myself to a yard of gorgeous Batik fabric without leaving me short on the light bill. And just like trying to stick to a diet where you are never ever allowed a treat, denying yourself anything pleasurable, even $5 worth of beads if you can afford it, is a scenerio that is almost guaranteed to make a person fail. Human beings can only go so long in the rigors of self-denial before most of them will find a way to rebel and then go overboard. Whether it be eating an entire cheesecake or buying a $500 purse.

And I had to give up the mind set that just because I wanted it I should have it regardless of my financial reality. I also struggled for years with feeling as though I had to be a consumer in order to maintain the image that I could keep up with the people I worked with. Never mind that they were making 2-3 times more than I was, or that they were married and had two incomes not just one. I was governed by fear and insecurity for a long time that anyone would look at me and think along the lines of "Poor thing - she has been wearing the same winter coat for three years now"

I had to learn to no longer give a rat's behind what "THEY" thought or said and care more about taking care of myself first and foremost. This has been especially significant for me as I do not expect to inherit millions when my parents pass away, I am not married, and I live alone. So I keenly feel that my financial future rests squarely on my shoulders and mine alone.

Honeylioness - 04/08/09 01:24 PM

Challenge of the Week (COTW): Great challenge, I think there are a lot of people in the world (but not necessarily here of course) who are so wrapped up in their own troubles they do not fully realize just how hard others lives are.

Hmmmm ... I volunteer with two local City cleaning projects for the canals and the parks, I donate monthly to the United Way, buy extra cans of food for the local animal shelter when I go to the store, just did the bake sale and food collection for our local food bank, once a week I walk around my condo complex picking up trash from the yards and from planting beds, sweep my quarter of the shared parking lot twice a month, contribute to church, am a volunteer docent at the historic estate and donate my gently used clothing and household items to either St. Vincent de Paul or Big Brothers.

Yep - I think I am done

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14 April 2009


Question of the Week (QOTW): Tell us a few things that make you happy. Has that changed with your new attitude on spending? (Inspired by Nsinglet)

Challenge of the Week (COTW): Thank you Nsinglet! Make a list of at least 15 and up to 100 things that make you happy. When you are feeling down pull out the list and try to experience one or more (even if is just the memory.) Can be as simple as the sun shining or watching your kids play (or playing with them)

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QOTW: In reviewing my “short” list I only saw two things that had anything to do with finances – NOT being in debt and Wonderful fabric. The first because of how good it feels and the second because I can indulge this habit without knowing it means the water bill will be paid late.

1. Lilacs
2. My cats
3. Working in my garden
4. Being in the field picking berries
5. Wonderful fabric
6. Summer thunder storms when I am sitting in the window seat with a glass of wine watching the storm roll down from the North
7. My mother
8. My nieces
9. Working at Gore Place
10. Bone China or Italian mosaic jewelry
11. Sunday afternoons curled on the couch with a pot of tea and the weekend paper
12. Classic Disney animated movies
13. Chocolate
14. Raspberries
15. NOT being in debt
16. Antique textiles
17. Meadows of wildflowers
18. A great book
19. My favorite CD’s and tapes
20. Cooking for friends
21. Volunteer work
22. “Freecylcing”
23. Finishing a quilt
24. Receiving flowers
25. Outdoor concerts
26. Shakespeare plays performed outside
27. Feeling pretty
28. The colors green and purple
29. Long winter weekends with nothing to do but laze around with a good read, a mug of hot chocolate and a nice fire
30. The aroma of beef cooking on the grill
31. Fresh picked corn on the cob
32. Autumn foliage so vibrant and strongly hued against a deep clear blue sky that it almost seems too impossible to be real
33. The smell of autumn. A mixture of crisp air, dried leaves, apples and a trace of wood smoke
34. The first real snow of the winter that covers all the dead grass and foliage in thick white velvet
35. A sun warmed tomato eaten directly off the vine
36. The taste of the first picked Macintosh of the season
37. The aroma of bread rising and the feel of the dough as I knead it
38. Lions
39. The smell of the garden after a summer rain
40. Clothes dried outside on a clothesline – especially sheets which smell like sunshine the first night you crawl into bed with a freshly dried set
41. Warm summer nights out on the sleeping porch listening to bullfrogs call to each other as you fall asleep
42. Baby animals
43. A really good cup of coffee
44. Watching the Flag snapping in the wind as I listen to our National Anthem
45. Certain hymns at church
46. Finding the "perfect" gift for someone, on sale and months before I need it
47. Perfume
48. A good hair day
49. No cavities at the dentist
50. Getting a tax refund instead of owing anything
51. Waking up early only to realize it is Saturday and you can roll over and go back to sleep
52.



21 April 2009


Question of the Week (QOTW): What is one wish/dream/goal you plan on making come true?

Challenge of the Week (COTW): Do something good for the environment, preferably something lasting. A new habit not one you have. For example: I am attempting to use fewer paper towels. I am also trying to figure out a way to recycle all my news papers I get (free ones not ones I ask for) without having to use paperbags as I have gone to reusable bags at the grocery store and don't get them very often any more.

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Honeylioness - 04/23/09 01:01 PM

QOTW: Just a couple of weeks ago my answer to this would have been completely different, so it took me a couple of days to think about it and come up with an answer. To sell the condo and buy a house with a nice piece of land, ideally abutting a state park or protected area where no development can happen. This way I can have a proper working garden and space for a dog. Yes, I am basically still a “cat person” but would dearly love to have an English Mastiff

COTW: There is SO much I want to do around my place along these lines – but the management company won’t go for it. Another reason I need my own house. I would love to install collection downspouts to collect rain water either into rain barrels or an underground cistern to “re-use” for watering the lawn and plants, have a working compost bin/pile to reduce what gets thrown away. Multi-unit places like ours are ineligible for city recycling and no private company will do it for us – so I have to “smuggle” some of my recycling across town if I want it kept out of a landfill.

I went to re-usable fiber bags months ago and use them a lot, my grocery store even offered an insulated model for milk, ice cream and meats. Even if I do not have it with me I will tell the cashier “No Bag” if there are only 3-4 items I am getting. I use cloth towels primarily (paper towels on hand for kitty “accidents”), I switched to a dish rag I can wash and bleach instead of toss like a sponge, I only vacuum once a month now as with the wood floors it is just as easy to sweep them, I pay most of my bills on-line, just hung my first load of wash on the clothesline in my laundry room and will use my dryer now only sporadically for large blankets or bedspread from now until October. I already my own detergent, use limited cleaners around the house, have newer appliances and furnace that are energy efficient, and when buying anything I try to find the least packaged type as some things are so over-packaged it’s nuts.

One thing I do that my grandmother and mother did does really seem to help with the heating and cooling bills. I have thick lined drapes over most of my windows. During the winter I keep them open all day to let any sunlight in and help warm the house, then when I get home from work I close them to seal off any possible drafts and to keep the warm air from being wasted trying to heat up cold glass panes.

Then in the summer I reverse the process. The drapes are shut all day to keep the heat of the sun out of the house. Then in the evening I open them and the windows at night and let the cooler air flow into the house and cool it down. Then in the morning I close the windows and drapes for the day. I have noticed it helps keep my A/C costs down.

[Honeylioness]

04 April 2009

startsmart - Interesting topic - what or why we have the screen name we do. Well, let's see. My given name is Greek for "honey bee". My father says they had no idea just how apt that would turn out to be - since I can be sweet one moment and then STING you the next. As to the Lioness part - I have a LOT of hair, my mother used to say "enough for three people" and family would call it my "mane". I love lions and have a small collection of lion figures in the guest room. So I came up with Honeylioness when I first starting exploring the web and chat sites about six years ago. It also warns folks that I just "might" have a temper .... though most figure that out from the red hair.

Well, the Birthday did not go quite as planned. It seems that the actress who does this one woman play has hurt herself and will not be able to complete the play's run. There is another actress from CT who just finished a run there and will be taking over - but in order for her to get up to speed with this production they canceled last night's performance.

I had thought about going tonight - but honestly it has been POURING here since around mid-morning. Not just raining - but windy, sideways torrential downpours and frankly I was not all that enthused about walkint to the theater while dodging squirrels, raccoons and house pets frantically trying to pair up to get a seat on the Ark!!!! I am planning on going to the theater tomorrow to see the play.

Yesterday at work a co-worker brought me one of those small individual cakes you can get at the store - so I had a birthday cake! I thought that was so sweet of her - I was not planning on making one for myself because I really did not want a while cake calling my name from the kitchen counter!

Today I did a bit of kitchen scrubbing, laundry and then took a nap. Made dinner, played around on the computer and watched some television. A part of me thought I might have used the day to have a "startsmart" day and get 20 things completed - but mostly just lazed around - which is not necessarily a bad thing. I have several errands to do tomorrow but hope to get them done before lunch time as it is going to be raining all night and day tomorrow as well.

For all those other Fabric Lovers and crafty folks I thought you would enjoy this. One of the quilter blogs I keep up with posted this question the other day: "Let’s see how many quilts YOU have hanging around YOUR house! There’s a link to a little survey below. Before you jump right in you’ll want to snag a scrap of paper and a pencil. Maybe a calculator. Answer these questions as you tour your home counting YOUR quilts"

So I decided that even though I was not sure I REALLY wanted to see the numbers I would take her challenge. This is my reply on her blog. Keep in mind now that not all of these are bed sized items as I do make small wall hangings also.

Well, not counting the one in process of machine quilting, the two in process of hand quilting, the top I am embellishing, the three “in progress”, the ones made for others and given away, the two tops waiting to be layered and quilted and the three pizza boxes of blocks and pieces waiting for inspiration I came up with:

On beds: 2
Draped over railing, furniture: 7 Mine & Vintage
Hanging on walls: 4 Home / 1 Office
In storage (not displayed): 22 Vintage / 2 Vintage tops / 25 Mine / 4 Christmas
On floor (for pets): none – the cats use what they can find and want to use :-)
In other places: 2 Shower curtains (Fall/winter & Spring/Summer)

[Honeylioness]

startsmart - 04/07/09 03:24 PM

COTW- I think my care package for my cousin falls under this one. So far the package contains:
2 packages of beef jerkey
2 packages of trail mix
6 packs of gum
3 battery powered razors

I plan to add:
white athletic socks
homemade brownies and cookies
pictures

Any other suggestions?

HATOO - 04/07/09 03:31 PM

startsmart: is your cousin in the military? There's a great web-based group called The Baking Gals who send baked goods to overseas military. You could nominate your cousin to be the recipient and a whole group will send him/her stuff! That would be a great way to give.

startsmart - 04/07/09 04:03 PM

HATOO- he is indeed in the military, I'll look into the group although I'm trying to send more regular packages so he and his unit get home baked goods more often.

teh mom - 04/07/09 04:20 PM

Startsmart-cards! Any and all types of cards. I think new decks would be nice. Who else here has played enough cards with the same worn deck that you know who has the Jack of Spades? We recently sent a package to solders overseas and we sent a deck of Uno and Rook (I had duplicate, new cards of these, so we donated them).

Honeylioness - 04/07/09 04:52 PM

startsmart - Okay......*looking around to find my custom-made crushed purple velvet soapbox trimmed with emerald braid and gold cartouche then stepping up*

Sending packages overseas - something I know a little about from Hawk's last "rodeo". Now, depending on where your cousin is stationed there are things that seem a bit odd to us but will make their daily lives a bit more pleasant.

If the team/group is in the field as opposed to being in the Green Zone or Kabul I would recommend sending some of the following as well:

• Antibacterial hand wash gel - Water is at a premium for most field troops and they will drink it rather than wash
  
• Baby wipes - See above especially as regards personal hygiene.
  
• Immodium AD - Many suffer from gastrointestinal issues from the water, stress and food
  
• Chapstick
  
• Sunscreen or zinc oxide
  
• Playing cards
  
• Crossword puzzle books - added bonus, completed pages double as field toilet paper.
  
• Pencils and a sharpener
  
• Note paper and envelopes to write thank you letters etc.
  
• Packets or small jars of spices like garlic, pepper etc. - Most field units have no chow facilities and are preparing their MRE's over small propane burners. They may be nutritious but they lack any real flavor so spices are welcome in making them more palatable.

[Honeylioness]

jillbean_1978 - 04/09/09 01:14 PM

I went to bed a lot earlier than normal for me last night. I had to get up early to get my oldest to school. And I walk into the living room and see someone laying in my chair. It was my sister!!! So now I have, I guess, all of my siblings staying here. What part of part time job making min. wage do they not get??? And why do I have to be the middle child?!?! Yes I have 2 brothers who are younger but they are twins, so they count as one. LOL And why do I have to care so much??? Ya know, if I was a drinking kind of person I would be drunk already today.

So I am feeling lost and beaten today. I just wanna pay our bills and maybe throw some extra in the bank. Am I asking for way too much? I just don't know anymore.
J

Honeylioness - 04/09/09 01:48 PM

jilly-bean – let me see if I’ve got this straight. Your husband went through a job re-shuffle and is now working part time for minimum wage, you have at least one child, BOTH brothers are living with you and now your sister shows up?


Yeah …….. one word comes to MY mind …..NOT!!!!!


If I may ask, and forgive me if you have already shared this and I someone have forgotten, WHY are your brothers living with you again? And are you sure your sister intends to take up residence and did not just “drop in”? I know middle children are less likely to seek out confrontation and prefer to just let this slide – but as an oldest I have some suggestions for you.

First – why exactly do they think they can/should live with you? What about your parents? Why don’t they move back there?

Second – if you are okay in theory with this arrangement I would still make EACH of them sign a living arrangement agreement including such things as paying their share of utilities and food.

Third – If it really will be too much financially, emotionally, psychically for you to have them in your home long term then tell them they have until May 8th to make other arrangements. You love them dearly, but hope they understand that your family’s well being and ability to take care of yourself MUST come first.


If you need specific phrases or pep talk or just to bounce options off someone feel free to contact me. I am not one to normally butt-in on other people’s situations but can usually push myself to be a bit bolder if it is needed (stop laughing R2B2 & Sharing – I can hear you from here)

dakota4600 - 04/09/09 02:10 PM

jillbean- I hope you have a house rule that if you are over 18 you must contribute to the household expenses if you plan on staying. I have a friend who had to do some tough love with a BIL and SIL to be. They were living with her and not contributing, bumming rides and setting bad examples for the lil ones. She gave them 30 days to find jobs and contribute or get out. They left and moved in with the girls parents. The freeloaders were sponging off a family that had one breadwinner, a student and 2 small kids. Not cool!

SingleMom - Ky - 04/09/09 02:24 PM

Honey - You said exactly what I was thinking only much better. And this is coming from "baby" of a family! Those siblings need a wake up call.

Dakota - I second your comments ... pay up or get out!


Red2Black2011 - 04/09/09 02:26 PM

Honey: LMAO.

Jilly: Seriously, take Honey's suggestion. If for no other reason but for your peace of mind. If you need help with the words she will happy to help. Good luck with what ever your decide. We're here for you.

3catslady - 04/09/09 02:48 PM

Jilly; take it from someone who is there. Get them out as fast as you can. I bought a house in my name and had my son and his family move in the big place while I moved in to the off-side room that was a business. We intend to finish the attached garage for me because he did not want me to end up in a nursing home o some other place. He wanted to take care of me. On the other hand, my DIL wants to TAKE Tongue out On Sunday night I ended up in the ER for severe depression. Not a fun night. These ladies have helped me through an awful lot of tough times with tough love and I am listening to them, maybe not as fast as I should but what they say makes more sense than my mindtalks.

SES_Books - 04/09/09 02:54 PM

Jill--you are helping no one by letting them sponge, just enabling negative behavior. This kind of living arrangements occurred during the Great Depression, but EVERYONE worked their tails off to contribute to the household expenses. They are setting bad examples for YOUR children. Listen to Honey!

startsmart - 04/09/09 03:07 PM

Okay Jill, deep breath for me 'cause I am long winded... Open-mouthed

First, know that we care about you and only want the best so while some advice may seem harsh it's coming from a place of concern.

You need to determine why each person in your family is currently staying with you. Is there a legitimate need? Have they asked your and DH's permission? Are they contributing to the household? Is anyone running from the law and/or engaging in illegal or dangerous behavior? What plan does each person have to get a job or two and be self supporting? Is this person taking responsibility for where they are or playing the blame game?

After you've answered those questions for each person under your roof (aside from you, DH and any kiddos) it's time to talk to DH. Be honest about your financial situation. Be honest about space constraints and how all the free boarders will influence your time, energy, and yes, budget.

I know it sounds just horrible that we're calling your siblings freeloaders but hear me out. 1) showing up in the middle of the night and letting yourself into someone else's home is rude and presumptious. 2) While you obviously care for your family they need to have the same concern for you. 3) Even if you had the means to support others I would insist they are contributing to the household and have a solid plan to be independent within six months (max).

Try this explaination: "I know it seems harsh that you can't stay here indefinitely but honestly we're really strapped as well. If I don't take care of my bills, which I can't do if I'm paying yours, then we'll end up without a house as well."

teh mom - 04/09/09 06:20 PM

Jillbean-I hope your sister is just visiting for a day. If she is not, point blank ask her how she is going to help you around the house (financially especially). It is hard, but not cruel, and a necessity. Yea, what Honeylioness said! O wait! Your twin brothers are living with you too! Sad

jillbean_1978 - 04/09/09 06:28 PM

Ok, first let me say thanks for helping in giving me a back bone so to speak.

Brother #1: He and his girlfriend broke up. He before that was staying with our parents. They can be 'rude' about things. I wouldn't live there either. LOL

Brother #2: He lives here because after he got back from boot camp in Sept. he didn't have a job anymore. And well jobs aren't exactly easy to get these days.

Sister #1(thank God I don't have more!!) showed up last night around midnight(I was in bed and didn't know) because her boyfriend decided because she was 25 minutes late from work that she is messing around on him. He was drunk.

Brother#1 does have a full time job. But he will also have 2 kids next month. Sister works part time(20 hours) and couldn't even begin to afford any place here. Even the trailer that she is looking at $140/mo rent. She pays $70/wk in child support. Brother#2 is in the National Guard and well that doesn't pay much after his child support is paid.

My husband lost his full time job that paid $20/hr and had a part time job that is now the only job. I work only when needed at a high school cleaning in the evenings. So I can't really count on me getting a check. It's really only if someone is sick or wants/needs a night off. I did apply for a part time job today with CVS!!! That would be great!! But I'm sure lots of people are applying for it. I have no work experience in retail. Heck, I don't even have work history for the past almost 4 yrs.

Anyways. I told both brother's today that they were gonna have to start paying $200/month to stay. I don't think they will be here much longer! Oh well. Doing my dishes is all nice and good but we need money. Cold hard cash. Sister left to take some keys back to said boyfriend and I haven't heard from her since. She said she would be back tonight....but who knows.
I would LOVE to have our home back with just the 6 of us(me, Dh and 4 kids) but right now I guess not. And trust me, I have to laugh or I will lose it....everyone in the family knows that we aren't doing too great.

I'll see if sister goes back to him or not....that drama needs it's own thread.

Jill

Honeylioness - 04/09/09 06:54 PM

jillbean - thanks for the additional information. Now .... you are NOT to feel bad or like the "meany" for letting your siblings know that the Free Ride Express has come to the end of the line.

Regardless of how much either brother has taken out of their check for child support or taxes they know very well there is NO WHERE else they can live for $50 a week. You and your husband will need to present a united front in this matter. I cannot imagine that young men in their 20s nibble on salads and sip water - one of your primary responsibilities should be making sure your children are fed and housed. The brother who has kids should especially know this.

As for brother #1 moving two more children into your home - which is what I inferred from your comment that he "...he will also have 2 kids next month ..." If this is so, and he is still living there with your permission - how much will he be paying you on TOP of his $200 a month "rent" to cover your time for childcare? Helping family is one thing - but if he thinks he can just drop two more children into this mix with no financial reprecussions - well, it is most definitely time for a "Come to Jesus" meeting.

Brother #2 also knows there is no where else he could live for so little. He is adult enough to serve his country, then he is definitely man enough to not even want to sponge off his sister.

Same for your sister. I know I may sound like a real hard a$$ - but again, if you are old enough to have children then you are old enough to face the reality of supporting not only your kids but yourself.

Again - You are to stick to your guns and NOT let any of them make you feel bad or unloving or as though you are being cruel. And if you do consent to let any/all of them live in YOUR home - while the money is a requirement make sure they understand it is NOT in lieu of helping out. Everyone will still have to share the household chores such as cleaning, laundry, dishes, yard work etc. Again things they would have to do anyways if they were living on their own.

Finally, and you can take this or leave it as you will, but this is how I see a person's priorities when it comes to relationships and in what order you take care of them:

1. God / Faith
2. Myself
3. Partner
4. Children
5. Parents
6. Other family
7. Friends
8. Community

SES_Books - 04/09/09 07:19 PM

Once again Honey has covered the bases. Honey, when are you going to straighten out the national mess?

Sheila in Cali - 04/09/09 09:01 PM

Jill: Ok- everyone has given you excellent advice but please please please do me a favor and google landlord/tenant laws in your state. Given that I spend a lot of time at home during the day there are a LOT of judge shows on tv. Highly educational at times. If you charge them rent (even if you don't have a lease) then they are a tenant. If you want to evict them you have to jump through hoops depending on your state.

I am all for charging them rent- just take a few minutes to educate yourself and write up a lease! Be sure to include basic things like expected behavior (chores, when rent is due, food, utilities, visitors, etc). Again- check with your state on line.


dsygrl926 - 04/09/09 09:36 PM

well I had a zillion other comments, but of course you all got to them first and better than I would have written! but Jilly ~ please please please listen to the others on this thread. . it seems to make so much sense while you are in the middle of it. . times are tough for them. . where would they go. what would they do?? ?

Take it from one who is still recovering from "helping out family" they need to figure it out!


Honeylioness - 04/09/09 10:21 PM

SES - Hooo boy - wouldn't I love the chance to straighten out the National Mess. However I would only take it on with some conditions. In fact your comment got my mind going and spawned a rather large response from me. So large in fact I saved it elsewhere. If anyone is interested it can be found Here
honeylioness.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=thoughts&thread=71


SES_Books -04/09/09 10:44 PM

Honey you have my vote.

Especially a national language-think how much would be saved by printing everything in one language .

How about banning the advertising industry so we don't know what the Joneses have and want to keep up with them.

And start community service at about the third grade.

Can we have uniforms in schools so no one feels embarrassed by what they don't have.

Now you have me started.


reeneejune - 04/09/09 11:09 PM

Honey for President!! LOL

Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 04/09/09 11:18 PM

SES_, and let's come down hard, with zero tolerance, for bullying of any sort. Look at the link between workplace violence and bullying not to mention that terrible Binghamton, NY news.

I like your suggestions! I'd add a type of National Guard duty for our parks, monuments, museums, heritage places etc. because I think civic pride shows respect and brings respect to self, community and shared history. I also worry that budget cuts will impoverish cultural services and that we will grow to discount the importance of having art galleries, curators, archivists and researchers.

3catslady - 04/09/09 11:42 PM

Honey; when did you say you were running for top spot? I want to join, please? I'll do anything. I want to live in a country where everyone you talk to knows just what you are saying and you can understand everyone else; where kids will learn to read, write and do math with out a calculator for the simple things. Some can't even give correct change. The bad thing is that they use the register for the amount but give you dimes and nickels instead of quarters, and no they were not short on quarters. They didn't know that 7 dimes and a nickel were the same as 3 quarters. They are hiring a young man at the deli that can't read. How is he going to know what meat he is looking for or the cheese. I am not a babysitter when I am there, I am a worker.

rant done night


jillbean_1978 - 04/10/09 01:55 AM

Thanks so much for the advice ya all!! Really I know that everything you say is true. And I would be telling anyone else the exact same thing. I know also though that getting a job right now is hard. Very hard. My sister called and is staying with this 'boyfriend' tonight. She says its because she doesn't have the gas to come to my house(13 miles maybe) and then drive to her bank tomorrow to get her check(30 miles) so she isn't here. And she is the type who can not and will not be without a man. She can not stand being alone. So she has had many bad relationships. This one isn't new. Just been about 6 years since she 'needed' a place to stay.

Brother #2 got in a very sour mood tonight. I think he is freaking out over me saying something about rent. And I do feel kinda bad for him. His truck is broke. He can't even go look for a job right now. And I can't fix it for him. I think he thinks I'm gonna kick him out. LOL And he actually does housework. I am hoping that brother #2 gets a place super soon. And I think he will because it's very loud here. Add his 2 rugrats into the mix and oh my.....

I will now be working 3 nights next week, only 4 hours each night, but it's something. And I'll also get to work the 24th for 4 hours. As a sub I'm only allowed to work 4 hours/night. No more. And also the 24th and 25th is 'town wide yard sales' for the town I work in. I can usually get my kids' summer and fall clothes for under $25. So I am hoping to be able to get some deals then again this year.

I know that I am one of the new people here and I hope that my vent today didn't offend anyone, but I do agree with what others have said...we are women and we do care about others. 'Talking' to other women does help. I know it helped me today. Makes me wonder why I always brought home 'stray' people instead of animals. That might have to be another thread too. LOL

Well it's going on 2 a.m. here and I really should try to sleep a bit. Thanks for the words of wisdom and advice. I will reread them alot over the next few days/weeks.

Jill

Red2Black2011 - 04/10/09 09:35 AM

Morning Ladies,

Honey: You have my vote. You also have a built in cabinet. I think it was two months ago Toasty, named our cabinet posts.


startsmart - 04/10/09 10:40 AM

Honey- So... you're officially running for Prez?

[Honeylioness]

10 April 2009

Honeylioness - 04/10/09 11:02 PM

Okay, a bit more about my foray over to the Dark Side - aka YM. I was just curious I suppose. So I looked at some of the thread titles and one caught my eye. So I thought "what the heck" and checked it out. Now Ladies, I know we can cover a lot of ground with the diversity of topics we cover - but holy nutse. So many of the posters over on YM have the attention span of a flea with ADHD!!!

So then I thought "Perhaps this is just this thread". Out of curiosity I perused a couple of other threads. Nope, it is a rampant problem over there. For those who have wisely avoided the chaos let me give you a quick sampling.

• 1. A post is started to discuss an article in Newsweek that the Author feels is enough to justify everyone canceling their subscription
  
• 2. It then jumps to not just a discussion about the state of traditional religion in the United States but a denigration of any religious belief
  
• 3. Then it moves to borderline vicious attacks on those with more conservative views, generalizations about abortion and mud slinging and deleted posts for profanity
  
• 4. This suddenly jumps to a fight about whether Christianity has been around a long time, and how does 500 years equal a long time, then arguments based on whether it really has been around for 2,000 years or if that is just a government conspiracy theory
  
• 5. Jumping to verbal battles about the origin of the Easter Bonnet, Easter Eggs and people getting their panties in a twist that anyone mentions religion at all since the Board is supposed to be free of any such discussion and is only about money.
  
• 6. Then, another regular occurrence, someone mentions that another Board has a higher posting number than YM and people MUST post even one character to get their numbers back up so they are again in the lead.
  
• 7. ??

Honestly, I rarely ever see any meaningful money discussions there anymore. Even a poor couple who asked if anyone had constructive input about re-financing were subjected to rants about how they bought too much house and created the current situation. *SIGH*

Freemidwife - 04/11/09 12:14 AM

Honey (and everyone else): Did y’all see the weird “Post of the Day” from YM? WTH? You know, if it gets that bad- whatever you do won’t matter, and why, in your mind, do you want to go there? I think MSN needs to intervene. They have a person with some DSM-IV TR diagnosis, for sure, running (and running people off of) that board. See below:

HAVE YOUR PREPARED FOR FINANCIAL DOOM? Or at least financial crisis?

Have you done anything out of the ordinary to prepare for financial doom or crisis? I have converted some funds into gold and silver maybe around 40k worth or so. If chaos breaks out are you prepared? What about food and water? It sounds silly but did we really think 911 could happen? It wouldn't be that hard to poison the water/food supply. If financial chaos broke out......do you really think people would behave and leave you alone? You'd be surprised at what people are capable of. What have you done, if anything? What do you think the chances of chaos happening? I put it at about 50% chance.

**************************

HAVE YOUR PREPARED FOR FINANCIAL DOOM? Or at least financial crisis?

A thread off of the YourMoney board: moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/thread.asp?threadid=1047135&boardname=Hide&header=SearchOnly&footer=Show&boardsparam=Page%3d1&linktarget=_parent&pagestyle=money1&forumid=18&board=YourMoney

*******************************************

teh mom - 04/12/09 09:46 PM

Honeylioness-we are preparing for disaster for many reasons. It’s coming. It’s foretold. It’s being prophesied. Now, we are not mixing the koolaid. But, if nothing does happen (in the very near future), I have a very well stocked pantry. I also would just like to “get off the grid” and be self supportive. That is why I think it would be so cool to live with the Amish for a few months. See how it is done (see how it use to be done in the pioneer days). I wish solar panels weren’t so darn expensive. I think I was referencing your (spot on) idea of the YM group. They had a post something about financial disaster, and you had outlined EXACTLY how their post go. I read over there at times, but seldom post.


Freemidwife - 04/13/09 12:17 AM

teh mom: I had commented on the YM post. I have no objections to taking care of one's self, but if the economy collapses, what will gold really mean? I honestly believe that there is money- and most of what is going on economically is a big game. So far, companies like AIG have even more money and many of the smaller competitors are sucked up by the big banks. Many individual stockholders also have lost money, but those at the top, and the governments still have it. Kinda reminds me of the games with gas prices in the last year.....

Also, I believe that if many people dwell on dire prospects, it makes things worse- I try to be positive and regard this a challenge.

Honeylioness - 04/13/09 12:51 PM

teh mom - I have mixed feelings about "being prepared for a disaster". On the one hand I know that New England is LONGGGGGGG overdue for a major hurricane that will leave tens of thousands without power for days or weeks. So to that end I do keep a good supply of canned items on hand, extra batteries, manual can opener, kerosene for my lamps and I have four large glass jugs that I keep fresh water in (I rotate them monthly, use the contents to water the plants and re-fill with fresh water). I also have one box with my important documents in it that I can grab and go if need be, along with carriers for the cats.

Aside from that I am more ambivalent I guess. Even if every market crashes tomorrow and the whole world is plunged into financial ruin I am not sure gold bars or even cash will matter much. In my opinion IF there was a worse case scenario many would resort to bartering for what was needed. That is not to say that I cannot see value in your viewpoint. I think a lot of people no longer have the basic skills to feed or clothe themselves if they were without stores or drive-thrus.

For me also there is an appeal to spending several months living with an Amish family for several reasons:

1) There is a strong sense of Community that for many living out here "Among the English" is missing and I believe people do yearn for.

2) There is a deeper sense of pride in oneself knowing they can take care of their family through their own efforts and not having to rely on handouts. Although the gift of Charity is strong in Amish communities and people will come together to help a family in need.

3) There is an appeal in not being bombarded daily or hourly with "talking heads", doom-sayers or chicken-little media types. But being more in touch with the subtle rhythms and cycles of nature and the earth which supports us.

4) I find the same appeal when studying Native American cultures as well. A much older and truer appreciation for that which nature provides and a more reverent respect for it's potential destructive power.

5) I am beginning to long also for a "simpler" way of life. Less things. More connections. Less time needing to be spent on what seem to be to be increasingly superficial matters and more time doing something deeply satisfying and meaningful.

6) However I do not see even the Amish as leading a "stress-free" way of life, there are just different stresses. As there were for the early pioneers. Waiting for rain to fall on the fields, worry about a cow that is off her feed and milk production, noticing the chickens are not laying productively, concern over eradicating whatever is eating all the lettuces in the garden.

7) It is also an increasing reality that the Amish do not live "off-the-grid" as much as people may think. Many run their own business in the nearest town which requires electricity to light, a telephone and public sewer systems. And others, especially women, take part time jobs at retail stores or restaurants to earn extra money. Because they do not live in a completely isolated fashion and must interact with non-Amish neighbors that means there is a need for money to purchase things they are unable to barter for - and this is not a new idea, it has been a reality for them since their inception. Coin is needed to purchase seed, cloth for clothing, harnesses for their horses, new canning jars, a replacement skillet or medical care.

Overall however I just accept that either way, natural disaster or man/government/financially made - there is almost nothing I can do personally to stop it. I can only do as I have been and make sure I am in the best possible shape financially as I can manage for myself and my family. And continue to trust the He will always be there to protect me.

Just a "few" rambling thoughts from the Big Kitty

sapphire12 - 04/13/09 01:46 PM

Afternoon all,

Honey as always an interesting commentary on the Amish. We have an Amish market where the Amish come down on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and sell their wares. They are located in a strip shopping center. It's been a plus for the community; as well as the Amish. I am with you for a simpler life style and valuing people and experiences over things. Now, certain things are a necessity, but we can go overboard with those also. Sometimes you have to keep the doomsayers in perspective. Having said that, most of us could stand to make smarter choices and that's all any of us have control over. Wow, you accomplished a lot. I thought I did a lot this weekend. I need to post your list and startsmart's list to serve as reference material.

[Honeylioness]

13 April 2009


Honeylioness - 04/13/09 01:16 PM

Weekend Update: Well let's see. I had a semi-startsmart weekend .....

• Did the grocery shopping
  
• Swept two staircases and six rooms
  
• Cleaned the main bathroom and half bath
  
• Washed the bathroom floor
  
• Dusted the dining room furniture
  
• Took out four bags of trash to the dumpster
  
• Have two boxes of things ready to donate to a local community yard sale
  
• Made the Citrus Chiffon pie, and a roasted leg of lamb studded with garlic for dinner yesterday
  
• Made it to the earlier Easter Service yesterday
  
• Went to see the play - FINALLY!
  
• Did a bit of clean up around my small front garden area
  
• Cataloged ALL my quilting books into a spreadsheet so I can look things up by topic, author or title
  
• Cleaned my bedroom including putting away two loads of clean laundry
  
• Watered all the plants

Now I just have to iron, do another load of laundry, wash the kitchen floor, pay some bills, update my budget, post my numbers here for the week, send an e-mail to a guild member about borrowing a display rack, make the participant challenge tokens, buy the gift certificates, get the thank you for the judge, print off the challenge info and voting slips, finish my State Taxes, mail the teabag, clean the second cat box, do the first floor stairs, wash the entry hall and do major filing ........ but perhaps not all tonight

sapphire12 - 04/13/09 01:46 PM

Afternoon all,

Honey as always an interesting commentary on the Amish. We have an Amish market where the Amish come down on Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and sell their wares. They are located in a strip shopping center. It's been a plus for the community; as well as the Amish. I am with you for a simpler life style and valuing people and experiences over things. Now, certain things are a necessity, but we can go overboard with those also. Sometimes you have to keep the doomsayers in perspective. Having said that, most of us could stand to make smarter choices and that's all any of us have control over. Wow, you accomplished a lot. I thought I did a lot this weekend. I need to post your list and startsmart's list to serve as reference material.

[Honeylioness]

An interesting thread from the YourMoney board:

Do you think that most people actually want to pay off their debts?

moneycentral.msn.com/community/message/thread.asp?threadid=1054505&boardname=Hide&header=SearchOnly&footer=Show&boardsparam=Page%3d1&linktarget=_parent&pagestyle=money1&forumid=18&board=YourMoney


politically_incorrect12 - 04/13/09 02:20 PM

It's a curious situation because it seems that a lot of people like the idea of paying off debt, but only if it doesn't affect their lifestyle and they don't really have to do anything for it. It reminds me of people, myself included, that talk about how they need to workout and get in shape....but always seem to find a reason to not work out and eat better. At some level, do you think that people actually want to pay off their debt or is it more one of those things that people say they want to do it; but don't really mean it.

I think people like the idea of having no debt payments, but if you were to sit down and show them how to do it....many would get excited at first, but after doing the steps for a little while start to get tired of it and go back to their old lifestyles. I think it's more that people like the idea of it, but do not want to do what it takes to actually pay off their debts. So, taking that into mind, I don't think that many people actually do want to pay off all their debt. I realize that sometimes things happen that you can't control, but for the most part many people still wouldn't do it even if nothing major ever happened to them.

WeWillBackGowron - 04/13/09 02:31 PM

...:::"a lot of people like the idea of paying off debt, but only if it doesn't affect their lifestyle and they don't really have to do anything for it":::...

I feel this way too, and you've summed it up perfectly.

The question I always ask people who "want" something is: "do you want it ENOUGH to DO what it takes to achieve it?"

...:::"many would get excited at first, but after doing the steps for a little while start to get tired of it and go back to their old lifestyles":::...

Bah, many don't even DO it for a while. They are excited UNTIL they hear "you just have to cut back on <x>" or "give up <y> and <z>" or "get a second job".

I am convinced that some people who post here are waiting to be told about some secret government program or a corporate grant that they can apply for online in 2 mins, and then start receiving $1,000/month for doing nothing.

DramaQ1015 - 04/13/09 02:37 PM

People in general I'd vote no are not really interested in paying it back. If they were you would not see all these attempted heartstring plucking stories on GMA and the like about how Johnny can no longer afford his house but is standing next to a brand new SUV as he talks about it.

Persons, though I would say yes.

I paid off my international student loan in one year, then just rolled it into my staffords after that. I want to pay it down as fast as I can, but at the same time I do like knowing that if times were tough I can take away that extra $100 and be no worse the wear for it. It'll just take me longer to pay off my SLs.

JustDaisy - 04/13/09 02:41 PM

I paid off my international student loan in one year, then just rolled it into my staffords after that

.

I'm not trying to be critical, but rather I would like to understand something. How is rolling one loan into another paying it off?

ETA: Yes, the first loan was technically "paid off", but the second increased by an equal amount. Thus the total outstanding debt is the same.

DramaQ1015 - 04/13/09 02:43 PM

I'm not trying to be critical, but rather I would like to understand something. How is rolling one loan into another paying it off?

Sorry, I didn't clarify.

I paid off the international loan completely, but instead of putting that now extra $100 back into my budget and spending it, I just took that $100 and applied it to my stafford payment.

JustDaisy - 04/13/09 02:44 PM

I paid off the international loan, but instead of putting that extra $100 back into my budget and spending it, I just took that $100 and applied it to my stafford payment.

Gotcha. So you really did pay off part of your debt. Great job.

just-a-little-nuts - 04/13/09 02:45 PM

Most people really like the idea of not having any debt payments (me included), until it means not having the lastest/greatest new technology, fashion, car, whatever. The problem is that too many people suffer from immediate gratification withdrawl when they have to "save" or "roll over into X debt". I saw that Lexus commerical with the Identity Theft theme and was appalled....my car is not my identity, and I refuse to put myself into unreal debt for a stupid status symbol.

WindyCityPaul1 - 04/13/09 02:46 PM

I think you're exactly right- most people like the idea of not owing any money, or being debt-free, but they don't believe it strongly enough to actually want to PAY off their debts.

DramaQ1015 - 04/13/09 02:46 PM

Gotcha. So you really did pay off part of your debt. Great job

Thanks. I reread the post and realized it didn't make much sense. I actually had 10 years to pay it off but paying off $2k in 10 years is a little silly, IMO.

By putting that extra $100 into my staffords I can get them paid off about 5 years early.Smile

I saw that Lexus commerical with the Identity Theft theme and was appalled....my car is not my identity,

Took me forever to figure out that was what that commerical was for. At first I didn't get it.

MarriedMollyMouse - 04/13/09 02:55 PM

I think far too many people are very comfortable with the idea of "some debt" ... which often is a slippery slope to the quagmire that becomes "too much debt." And, in some ways, it boils down to the sad reality that many people just "Can't Do Math." After all, if they really understood how much they were paying in interest for everything -- and how much that makes their total purchase price -- I would seriously hope that they would rethink their willingness to get into so much debt for everything .... school, house, cars, and "stuff." Anyway, because so many people are comfortable with having debt .... I do agree that many aren't willing to take the effort (and make the lifestyle changes) necessary to pay down or eliminate their debt.

NancyinFL - 04/13/09 03:01 PM

Bah, many don't even DO it for a while. They are excited UNTIL they hear "you just have to cut back on <x>" or "give up <y> and <z>" or "get a second job".

Amen, WeWill. The number of posts on these boards from folks who ask for help, wanting to get out of debt, saying they are desperate, then getting angry and defensive at exactly what you have mentioned, does bear that out. Sometimes, you can almost see the OP cross their arms, stamp their feet and hear the whining following any suggestion made by a YMer.

I've wondered if there should be a disclaimer given to these posters-in-need first thing. Something standardized, that explains 1) what is needed in order to help them (they need to post a DETAILED budget) 2) what is expected (an open mind and a willingness to listen to reason, experience and some criticism) and 3) what may have to happen in order for them to achieve their goal of getting out of debt (find a way to increase income and/or decrease expenses by doing without, selling stuff, cancelling subscriptions, going generic, etc.). I am not making light of this situation, by any means. Nor do I want to scare off anyone who needs help. I've been there, made the excuses, and then shut up and did what I had to do. There is no easy way out.

Grateful2u - 04/13/09 03:23 PM

I think a lot of the rationale for getting into debt is the outside influences (family, friends, tv/radio advertisements). It's difficult to say "I really want X, but I need to pay for Y first," especially since we are bombarded by advertisements for how necessary and wonderful X is.

I was very lucky since I grew up in a family where the favorite saying was "Save your money!" Not the best thing for a kid to hear when she wants a new bike, but it remains to be a huge impact in my life. I still have a house payment, but I want to get rid of this quickly so I can stop living like a college student with occasional relapses.

I am a little happy (emphasis on little) that this economy isn't so hot. Hopefully the recent higher credit card rates will cause more people to become more uncomfortable and decide to make a lifestyle change. We've already seen a dramatic increase in the amount of money people are saving. I'm hoping that this trend will continue because if more people were out of debt, the economy wouldn't be affecting so many people negatively.

Tryingtobefrugal1 - 04/13/09 04:14 PM

Well, I'm concerned with creating wealth...not eliminating debt. But the idea of no debt sounds good too.

I don't think it's bad for a person to have school debt, a car loan, and a mortgage if he can afford it and if he's meeting his long-term goals like saving for retirement and has an EF setup.

I think that's a middle class goal, paying off debt. They view it as being financially free, but it's not. I'd rather have a $450,000 mortgage and $500,000 in the bank rather than no mortgage and $50k in the bank.

rdoc - 04/13/09 04:16 PM

I saw that Lexus commerical with the Identity Theft theme and was appalled....my car is not my identity,
Took me forever to figure out that was what that commerical was for. At first I didn't get it.Embarrassed

I got it. But what i took away is that the Lexus is so good that everyone wants one.

I'd rather have a $450,000 mortgage and $500,000 in the bank rather than no mortgage and $50k in the bank.

Not me. That 450k mortgage means I am paying 4-5k per year (mostly interest) for the privilege of having it.

sally247 - 04/13/09 04:19 PM

Yeah man, I love being in debt. It is so fantastic!

pebbles2 - 04/13/09 04:19 PM

I can only speak for the people I know, and yes they would like to be debt free. Maybe it has something to do with age? I think the older we get the less we want to carry debt.

DramaQ1015 - 04/13/09 04:21 PM

I got it. But what i took away is that the Lexus is so good that everyone wants one

All I could think of was Lewis Black when he said that commericals have become so abstract you can't figure out what they are trying to sell.Tongue out

kgb18 - 04/13/09 04:22 PM

It's a curious situation because it seems that a lot of people like the idea of paying off debt, but only if it doesn't affect their lifestyle and they don't really have to do anything for it.

Truer words have never been spoken. That's how a lot of these scam debt relief places get so much business. They make a promise to get rid of your debt that is supposedly easy and painless ... "pay pennies on the dollar" type promises. People buy into it because they want an easy answer. In the end, they usually end up worse off.

grokmore - 04/13/09 04:34 PM

I'd rather have a $450,000 mortgage and $500,000 in the bank rather than no mortgage and $50k in the bank.

I'd rather find something for under $150,000, pay cash, have $100,000 in the bank, and $250,000 for capital funding.

I view credit like cigarettes: Not good for you, not good for those around you, often verifiable cause of second and third hand permanent affliction, addictive additives built in by industry engineers, addictive by peer pressure, an unreasonable cost of dollars to future generations collectively, stressful, risky, life shortening, and a filthy habit to boot.

Sorry, if I offend, but I rather not be around it for health reasons.

Tryingtobefrugal1 - 04/13/09 04:43 PM

I'd rather find something for under $150,000, pay cash, have $100,000 in the bank, and $250,000 for capital funding.

If you're that concerned with not having any debt, why don't you just rent and keep all the money in the bank.

Tryingtobefrugal1 - 04/13/09 04:48 PM

Not me. That 450k mortgage means I am paying 4-5k per year (mostly interest) for the privilege of having it.

Well, more like $21k if you just bought the house. But it's deductible so that's really like 15k. If you can't make $15k in interest with $450k then you're not applying yourself.

FL cheesehead - 04/13/09 04:49 PM

I am working very hard to pay down our debt. I would have made a very serious dent in our debt had I not gotten laid off in Nov. Our final truck payment was in August, and our final car payment was in october, and I was all set to make some substantial payments on our smallest debt first, and snowball from there. I am making minimum payments on all but the smallest. It will be paid off in a few months. I can't throw TOO much out there, at risk of leaving ourselves without enough for the basics like mortgage, utilities, food, child support obligation, etc. The next to pay off is the cc DH got stuck with from his divorce agreement, and then 3 other cards he holds. I will say that I married into the debt, and I have learned a lot here and worked seriously hard for two years to knock a lot down. I had never had credit cards before I got married, all I had was my mortgage and car payment and utilities, so that was all new to me.

milee - 04/13/09 04:51 PM

a lot of people like the idea of paying off debt, but only if it doesn't affect their lifestyle and they don't really have to do anything for it.

Very true.

I was having lunch with a close friend the other day and was shocked at some of her statements about her financial situation. She and her DH bought a couple of rental properties a few years ago and they are now having problems keeping tenants and having the properties cash flow. She sadly declared that if they couldn't get a tenant in the one property by June, she was going to be "forced" to just walk away from the mortgage.

Since she wasn't asking for advice, just sharing, I carefully kept my facial expression neutral and nodded while she continued on to describe her situation, but in my mind, I couldn't help but list the many, many ways she and her DH could make changes to pay for their debt:

1) She could get a job. Even a part time, low paid job would cover this rental house mortgage.

2) They could sell one of their paid for cars. Although neither is worth much, it would cover 3-5 months of the mortgage and since her DH works out of the country for months at a time, sharing a car is reasonable.

3) They could sell one of their boats. Again, none are worth much, but would at least cover several months mortgage.

4) They could sell their vacation home.

5) She could cut down the yoga classes and other spending. Again, it wouldn't completely pay the mortgage, but it would help.

I'm not meaning to sound like a judgmental friend because who knows if she was even serious about walking away, but it is the type of thing I'm hearing more and more. Many people do seem more willing to walk away from debt rather than make uncomfortable changes to pay it off.

kruegek77 - 04/13/09 04:59 PM

I find it odd that so many people obsess over only their liabilities. Looking at only liabilities is pretty pointless, without the larger picture. We gone from having $20k of debt when we graduated in 2000 to about $500k now. But the asset side of our balance sheet has increased more that the liabilities have (some even because of the liabilities we owe).

grokmore - 04/13/09 05:01 PM

If you're that concerned with not having any debt, why don't you just rent and keep all the money in the bank.

I didn't say I didn't want property or income; I said I didn't want a cigarette.

When I smoked, I was in the same type of denial credit provides. I felt I was cooler, calmer, able to think better, more on top of things. In reality, I was making myself and those around me sick, and making a ton of money for the cigarette companies.

I see credit the same way as cigarettes. Some people smoke for 70 plus years without any ill effects -- my mother-in-law did on the farm. My father died last year from lung cancer at 71 -- smoked for 61 years. I smoked for almost 40 years myself. Some are fine with credit, but most become ill without warning. The addiction is powerful and difficult to overcome partly because it is not widely recognized as an addiction -- with all of the ill of effects of any addiction.

How many years and how many losses did it take for us to recognize cigarettes for what they are? Cigarette companies were making billions, using a powerful lobby, and controlling public opinion with flashy ads. We were so sure there was nothing wrong with smoking and non-smokers were reactionary dorks.

chartersux - 04/13/09 05:01 PM

I used to think that most people wanted to repay debt. Not so much anymore. I see it so often...that people think they shouldn't have to honor a promise if whatever they went in debt for isn't as valuable as it once was, or they changed their mind, or if someone else didn't repay theirs, or it alters their lifestyle in any way.

This really hit me recently. I know 2 people who let their homes go into foreclosure. In both cases, I heard them say..."Well, it's not like everyone else isn't, and I'm upside down, and the maintenance/taxes are killing me, and the drive is worse than I thought it was going to be, so why should I?". Bottom line was, they didn't WANT to.

DramaQ1015 - 04/13/09 05:08 PM

I don't get student loans. It says right there in the promissary note that I have to DIE or be a vegetable in order to not pay my student loans.

That is pretty black and white right there. I do not understand people reading that and still choosing to take out tons of money and then turning around and whining about how they cannot pay it back and should get some type of bail out.

Uh did you miss the part where it said you have to DIE in order not to have to pay them back? Did we not get the same promissary note or something?Sarcastic

How you can read that and not take that 100% seriously is totally beyond me.

Martivir - 04/13/09 05:15 PM

I think that it's true to a point. While people ask for help and are willing to cut the little things like the morning coffee at Tim Horton's or the every other week manicure, they are not really willing to look at the big stuff. The apartment that takes up almost 50% of their take home pay or the cable package with every single blasted extra the cable company can think of. Because most of the little things can be cut without any kind of pain. But the second you even suggest that they change their lifestyle one tiny bit, it's too much and all of a sudden it becomes "We can't afford to pay more then the minimums."

Reminds me of my MIL. She figures she'll always have some sort of debt so why bother doing anything about getting rid of it. To her debt is just a part of life that everyone deals with. Only sees the world in monthly payments. When we were talking and we said we paid cash for our living room set you would have thought we told her we had stolen it. I think she had a heart attack the day she came over and I was dancing around the living room with the CC bill that had a 0 balance on it because we had finally paid off all of our cards. Yes I know it was a bit extreme but we had paid off over 10k on that card and dang it I was happy. To her we could have spent that money on better things. But that's how she wants to live her life( and BIL is following in her footsteps).

CRONEWITCH - 04/13/09 05:16 PM

Most people who aren't here want to be in debt. If you paid off all their debt for them they would go buy something on credit. I have seen people who had credit card debt paid off but moment they wanted something they charge it because the minimum payment is affordable. Give most parents $200 and pay off all their debt Dec 20 and see it they don't charge gifts. Then you know they do like debt. Have them Debt free Feb 1 and a refund coming from the IRS in a couple of weeks and see if they don't want to spend it before they see it even if it means loan fees and high interest.

grokmore - 04/13/09 05:19 PM

I used to think that most people wanted to repay debt. Not so much anymore. I see it so often...that people think they shouldn't have to honor a promise if whatever they went in debt for isn't as valuable as it once was, or they changed their mind, or if someone else didn't repay theirs, or it alters their lifestyle in any way.

I think I agree with that statement. I would like to think differently, but only because we live in a market where just about anything can be returned to the retailer whether we bought it there or not. Prevailing experience for the average person has a way of shaping thought or supporting rationalizations.

It's difficult for the average person to comprehend the difference between returning an unwanted item to WalMart, they bought at Sears 90 days after they purchased it, and no longer wanting their home because the loss they face is sometimes multiples of their annual paycheck.

Where you,me, and a few others would see the difference, I don't sincerely believe the average person faced with your scenario would or could.

Carefreeap - 04/13/09 05:37 PM

I tend to agree with Kruegek.

There are some sensible uses of debt that can be wealth building, such as reasonable use of long-term fixed rate loans to leverage when acquiring real estate.

That is in contrast to a lot of cc debt, which usually indicates a lack of cushion for life's set-backs, or worse in my opinion, someone living beyond his means.

I suppose some folks really do feel the need to keep up with the Jones without realizing the price that they can wind up paying. My favorite ad was the one with the guy who is mowing the lawn of his fancy house with the flashy cars and says "How do I do it? I'm up to my eyes in debt".

I think reading "The Millionaire Next Door" should be required reading in the junior or senior year of high school.

WindyCityPaul1 - 04/13/09 05:56 PM

After all, if they really understood how much they were paying in interest for everything -- and how much that makes their total purchase price -- I would seriously hope that they would rethink their willingness to get into so much debt for everything .... school, house, cars, and "stuff."

Let me give you a great reason the total interest calculation may be irrelevant. When we bought the place we are in now two years ago, we planned to move and either sell this place, or rent it out. Looks like we'll do that about a year late.

Anyway- I thought the same thing and dutifully paid cash for the appliances. I should have rolled them into the mortage and paid an additional $18 per month, or $648. Paying interest would have saved me money.

Matt714 - 04/13/09 06:08 PM

I've been there, made the excuses, and then shut up and did what I had to do. There is no easy way out.

Nothing really to add, just thought that these words needed to be quoted.

2007debtheaven - 04/13/09 09:03 PM

You can't put all debt into one basket. I'm assuming the OP (whose threads I always enjoy!) means consumer debt. But he / she didn't specify, and that alone is telling. All debt is not created equal. Consumer debt is not equal to REASONABLE SL debt or mortgage debt or even a REASONABLE car loan.

DH and I are not great earners. Yet we believe that debt is OK, for an appreciating asset. We don't have much debt, but yes, we always have some. Because the month after we paid off our mortgage (Aug 2007), we started improving the house. I know it's not ideal but we find it is easier to pay off a debt than to save. We only do one project at a time. The month after one project is paid off, we take on another.

As I said, we always only take on one project at a time. Unfortunately the water tank missed that brief. So now we have two projects, the new master bathroom and the new boiler. We are in a HCOLA.

We also have debt for two small (1 BR) rentals. To me that's also "good debt".

I LOVE the Dave Ramsay fans who can say that they are DEBT FREEEEEE but from what I can see most of them live in LCOLAs. When you don't, things are different. It's like the poster who said just buy a 150k place. You can't always do that, if you're in a HCOLA. Especially if you have a wife and kids.

This said, I'm from the WIR board, and PLENTY of people (and not just women) are making sacrifices and getting out of debt. PLENTY of them. The WIR board has been around for years and is getting stronger. But the heat is on consumer debt.

I am on my third race there. Always home improvement debt. I have never raced our rental debt, nor do I plan to. I don't understand these absolutes, "DEBT IS TERRIBLE" , or "DEBT IS LEVERAGE". It is up to everybody to do their own homework.

DH and I consider that we found a rule that works for us: we avoid taking on debt for a depreciating asset. We've done some things right, and some things wrong, but that's what we try to teach our kids. Don't borrow for something that will lose value, rather than gain value, the minute you get your paws on it.

This said if Murphy strikes tomorrow and our eight-year-old car dies, we will take on a car loan for the first time in our lives. Here's to hoping Murphy stays away, at least until I pay off the bathroom loan!

pink.cshmere - 04/14/09 02:22 AM

The people that I know that carry debt and talk about it usually fall into 1 of 2 groups. Either they have the attitude that "you'll have bills when you die, so why try to pay them off", or they think bankruptcy is the first and/or only solution to consumer debt.

When I took drastic measures (using what I learned on YM and WIR!) to tackle my debt, most of my friends and family thought I'd lost my mind, and didn't hesitate to let me know it. Only 2 people supported my efforts, everybody else thought I should just file bankruptcy and be done with it.

My attitude was that it was my (huge) mess, and it was my responsibility to fix it regardless of how and why it happened. I would've felt like a loser and a bum if I'd just thrown my hands in the air and walked away from it.

I did a complete 180 on how I handled money and credit, and gave it my best shot even though I was miserable the whole time. In the end, my efforts were for naught, mostly because some creditors exercised their right to NOT cooperate with me for a few months. I still struggle not to beat myself up about it all, but I'm mostly ok because I know there's very little else I could've done and I know I paid a heavy price WRT my mental and physical health, trying to fix the situation. If nothing else, I learned some very valuable lessons that shall never be forgotten.

So yes, some people really do want to pay off their debts. Even if they have to make uncomfortable choices and do things they'd really rather not. But judging from the people that thought I was nuts for trying, it doesn't seem to be a majority.

m marlene - 04/14/09 03:01 AM

Maybe I didn't get the memo . . . I actually LIKE to pay off my debts. I pay my cc bill every month in full if I carry a balance. The only other debts I have are my student loans (I want to build good credit, so I keep paying in monthly payments). .

And I also enjoy eating right and exercising. Is that so odd?

pink.cshmere - 04/14/09 03:52 AM

And I also enjoy eating right and exercising. Is that so odd?

Enjoy?? Yes that is odd.

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 08:39 AM

i think that people used to want to do it, but as many people are saying on here, that mindset seems to have changed in recent years. i just really don't understand the mindset of people walking away from mortgages. i can't comprehend.

that being said, i think we've all made a few financial mistakes along the way -- some larger than others -- and, hopefully, we've all learned from them. the folks that are walking away from mortgages now will probably learn that lesson when they're not able to get another loan for quite a long time. or they have to pay really, really high rates.

but then again, there are people that will never learn. oh well. not much i can do about those folks.

Greatful Lady - 04/14/09 09:39 AM

Most people in my opinion want to be debt-free.

grokmore - 04/14/09 09:40 AM

I LOVE the Dave Ramsay fans who can say that they are DEBT FREEEEEE but from what I can see most of them live in LCOLAs. When you don't, things are different. It's like the poster who said just buy a 150k place. You can't always do that, if you're in a HCOLA. Especially if you have a wife and kids.

Don't know Dave Ramsay. I think the point of credit addiction was missed. Addiction allows for rationalizations to feed the habit. IMO, there is no such thing as good and bad debt for just about everyone. Debt is debt and should only be used as a last resort to remain solvent with proper planning to return to a debt free status. As far a LCOLAs, if you cannot afford to live in a HCOLA without mortgaging a large chunk of your income then you cannot afford to live there. There are too many little events that could make you lose everything. On another board, there was a Forbes article that 86 some % of defaults on mortgages came from those with scores over 700. I'm certain they had the excuses of HCOLA when they mortgaged too.

I'd like to live in the Caribbean, but I can't afford to yet. It's a HCOLA, so I haven't moved there. I live in a LCOLA in Florida, but I could live on one of the many islands on the Florida coast (HCOLAs) if I wanted to spend a much higher percentage of my net worth. To borrow to get to a goal would be silly to me. I like financial freedom too much.

Besides the response I made was to a hypothetical half a million cash usage, roughly 30% for housing, 20% savings, and I used 50% of that to fund income. Where's the beef?

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 10:08 AM

if you cannot afford to live in a HCOLA without mortgaging a large chunk of your income then you cannot afford to live there.

so what would you suggest that those of us that live in a HCOL area do? leave our jobs? rent? would you suggest that i commute 3 hours each way so that i can keep my job but live in a lower COL area? live in a hovel where my personal safety is compromised but i don't have to pay as much for my mortgage?

part of the 'price' you pay for living with the convenience of a HCOL area is that a lot of your income goes to housing. i wouldn't say that i 'can't afford it'. i can. my income is just allocated differently than yours. i think it's a personal choice for some and a practical choice (i.e. this is where my job is) for others.

grokmore - 04/14/09 10:18 AM

Here's an example: I live an hour from Tampa and an hour from Orlando. I could work in either of those cities if I wanted more income from employment. But I prefer self-employment because I make a great deal more.

I live in a town that is very small and quaint by most standards, but I have a 2300 sq. ft., 3/2, and a half acre on the golf course with a fairway behind the backyard and another across the street. The property is Zillow valued at $190,000. Every house on my street is presently for sale except mine. Both vehicles I paid cash for, and they are now going on 6 years old. I have no credit cards. I am paying on a tax debt previously under dispute, and it will be paid in full this year.

We have restaurants, movie theaters, schools, universities, and what we don't have is an hour away -- including Disney World, Universal, or the beach. We have annual Florida Resident passes to Disney and Universal and can go for free whenever we like.

So, the ole' HCOLA excuse doesn't wash.

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 10:41 AM

grok -- just to be clear, i wasn't suggesting that you have an 'excuse' to be in debt if you live in a HCOL area. i was just suggesting that the statement that you can't afford to live in a HCOL area if you don't mortgage a lot of money (i.e. a decent amount of your income) is not a fair statement.

i mortgage a whole lot of my income, but don't have cc debt, car loans, etc. i have a student loan and my mortgage, that's it. and i have an EF, a 401k that's fully funded every year, and other investment accounts. yep, i could rent and not have a lot of debt -- but the cost would be fairly similar and i'd not be building any equity.

grokmore - 04/14/09 11:01 AM

I do understand. We have all been schooled to believe the debt in moderation is okay, because allot of businesses make a great deal of money from debt. I'm merely offering an alternative view. I used the comparison of cigarette addiction for a nation and credit addiction for a nation. Our parents (or parents parents in some cases) would have never borrowed money for anything but emergencies until it became so easy (IMO too easy) to get.

Now the purveyors of debt want to encroach into other ares of our lives, and this to is becoming socially acceptable because of the ease of looking the other way. Credit, debt, and what goes with it is an addiction that is slowly and steadily causing us to give up our freedom and well being for an illusion of security.

I've had several associates over the years that moved from this state to get a 20% increase in income only to find that the COL was 40% higher particularly when it came to housing and taxes. I'm only suggesting that there are alternatives to life that allow for a better or equal standard of living without buying into the "I have to have a mortgage that is 60% of my gross income because of where I live" mentality. You live where you live by choice, you borrow to live there by choice, and you CAN kick the habit by choice that's all I'm saying.

I do wish you well and good fortune, but I still stand behind my statements of what is healthy and what is unhealthy financially.

dreamy1 - 04/14/09 11:12 AM

I don't understand that. It goes hand in hand with not taking personal responsibility for the things you do. Blame everyone else but yourself. I hate that. I will pay back my debt because I created it no one else. My mother offered to help pay off my credit cards but I'm not accepting it. Why should she pay for my charges? I made the debt I will pay it.

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 11:14 AM

i guess i see your point...but i think we're coming at the issue from two different perspectives. you're assuming that everything is changeable...i.e. i could pick up and leave the city i live in, i could find another job in a lower COL area, etc. i'm saying that, if employment and geographical location are fixed and not changeable, then sometimes you are 'forced' to spend a decent amount of your income to provide housing.

in a perfect world, we can all live wherever we want....but i don't think it always works out that way.

it's ok...we're allowed to disagree on this!

grokmore - 04/14/09 11:23 AM

I don't understand that. It goes hand in hand with not taking personal responsibility for the things you do.

What are you refering to? People do or do not want to pay their debts or want to be debt free?

grokmore - 04/14/09 11:27 AM

in a perfect world, we can all live wherever we want....but i don't think it always works out that way.

This is America. Any or all of us can live where ever we can afford to live. Earl Nightingale once told me that people are where they're at because that is exactly where they want to be -- whether they admit it or not.

I have always believed him.

Sally704 - 04/14/09 11:33 AM

I am one of the people who wants to be out of debt, and stay that way. Six years ago, we had two car loans, camper loan and $60k+ in credit card debt. Hubby and I had "the talk" and decided that if we ever wanted to be home owners, something had to change. We spent five years living on an extreme budget while we paid off every penny of debt. We probably could have done it a little sooner, but with two teenagers, you have some amount of discretionary spending since I didn't want them resenting us. So, our spending on them decreased, but they didn't feel the budget nearly as much as we did. We now are almost two years into a mortgage on that house we wanted, and Discovercard pays me 2% cash back every month, because I charge EVERYTHING, and then pay it in full each month. It's my way of getting some of my interest back.

So, while I may be the exception ---- there are some of us who do really want no debt, and are willing to do what it takes.

NightOwl08 - 04/14/09 11:38 AM

I think for some (not all!) that say things like "I want to get in shape" or "I want to get out of debt" but don't take steps to do it, it is simply a matter of not wanting it badly enough. They'd like to wake up tomorrow morning fit and debt free if it could just happen overnight with no effort. But they are not ready to make the sacrifice and take on the struggle that will get them where they want to go. I've been there myself. It is a "no pain no gain" battle that you have to be willing to fight.

pianolvr - 04/14/09 11:49 AM

people are where they're at because that is exactly where they want to be -- whether they admit it or not.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. DH and I, my parents and grandparents have always lived where we have by choice. When that choice wasn't working for us any more, we've moved on. We have other family members that chose to stay where they were. Some people are happy with the outcome, some are not.

NightOwl08 - 04/14/09 11:59 AM

So, while I may be the exception ---- there are some of us who do really want no debt, and are willing to do what it takes.

Sally, congratulations on what you've accomplished...I know how hard that must of been! I had a similar revelation about 5 years ago and by the grace of God and a lot of sacrifice I am now debt free! (and thinner I'm happy to say)

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 12:02 PM

Any or all of us can live where ever we can afford to live.

i disagree - i know, you are SHOCKED right now, aren't you? Wink

i had, though no longer do, a parent in a long term nursing care facility. that facility cost approx 9k per month. obviously, i couldn't afford to pay that out of pocket. she qualified for state aid where she lived - and 3k miles from where i lived. i was told that to move her would a) be physically and mentally traumatic and would likely cause a serious deterioration to her health to the point of possible death and b) getting her covered by a state that she did not live in (and never resided in) would be next to impossible and that i should plan to shoulder the costs myself for an indeterminable amount of time.

so my options were to move her and possibly hasten her death while putting myself into serious financial trouble or to move to her area, which is a high COL area. or to leave her all alone with no family and very few friends (you lose a lot of friends when you become a hermit due to mental instability and early onset alzheimers) to support her in case something happened.

do you still think i have a choice on where i lived?

i say lived because she passed away in october, so, now, yes, i have a choice as to where i live. then, i don't really think that i did.

RogerB34 - 04/14/09 12:05 PM

I believe that many are hooked on debt the way many are hooked on alcohol and drugs. Similar to a gambling addiction.

Lenders may (may) have gotten the message that pushing debt on deadbeats isn't a profit model.

Nanlarson - 04/14/09 12:09 PM

I sure do, and I have most of them paid off, would love to pay off my home.

quotequeen - 04/14/09 12:11 PM

The smoking analogy is a poor one because you have no control over whether your smoking will cause you cancer or not. Whether my debt has any ill effects for me, or whether it helps me to build wealth and reach other goals, depends on me - my determination, my willpower, my research. I don't have complete control, but I have a lot of control, and I have a much better chance of success than the guy next door who doesn't pay attention to his finances and charges whatever he wants. If I wanted to be debt free I would be. I choose a different path.

pianolvr - 04/14/09 12:13 PM

do you still think i have a choice on where i lived?
i say lived because she passed away in october, so, now, yes, i have a choice as to where i live. then, i don't really think that i did.

I'm sorry for your loss. I totally get where you are coming from since we stayed in S Fl longer than we really wanted to for similar reasons. However, when circumstances changed, we moved. You seem to have done the same.

eng_steve - 04/14/09 12:26 PM

I'd rather find something for under $150,000, pay cash, have $100,000 in the bank, and $250,000 for capital funding.

If you're that concerned with not having any debt, why don't you just rent and keep all the money in the bank.

Not me. That 450k mortgage means I am paying 4-5k per year (mostly interest) for the privilege of having it.

Well, more like $21k if you just bought the house. But it's deductible so that's really like 15k. If you can't make $15k in interest with $450k then you're not applying yourself.

Well, I'm concerned with creating wealth...not eliminating debt. But the idea of no debt sounds good too.

I will discuss this together. Houses create wealth by lowering you cost of living compaired to renting. Especially over your lifetime. Over time rent goes up, interest payments go down. You should own a home when your interest + insurance + taxes = rent, if you choose greater than that it is for lifestyle choices. If you evaluate over longer periods of time initual interest payments can be higher than renting.

When compairing you really do not get a tax benefit from either paying off your debt or not. The reason is you if you have 500k in the bank earning 3%, = 15K, the 450K mortgate is at 5% = 22.5k. More than likely you get the mortgage interest deduction for 12-20k (some of your interest is likely to be included in your standard deduction). You have to pay taxes on your earnings, this will offset most of the home mortgage interest deduction. Assumint 20K is taken off for the deduction -22.5k+15k+(20k-15K)*.25= -6.25 k in interest you paid. zero mortgage you pay zero in interest but earn 50k*.03=1.5K.

You do not pay taxes on interest you do not pay, but give the pollitions time they will come up with something.

grokmore - 04/14/09 12:38 PM

then, i don't really think that i did.

Sincerely, I'm sorry to hear of your loss, and of course I agree you did not have a choice under the circumstances.

Truth is there are many potential events in life that give us no choice, I'm doing my best to remove as many of those as humanly possible without becoming a reclusive hermit myself. Although it is still up in the air whether or not my health will hold up -- genetics and poor lifestyle choices in early life.

Yours was completely unavoidable, and so are many other peoples' experiences. Unfortunately, we have a group of corporations that score the value of people without distinction of whether the scored has an unavoidable experience or a self-inflected experience. The score is based on a history of experience used to factor a predictability model. The accuracy of data is questionable as well. The use of credit feeds this group. And just as not everyone that posts here went through a painful experience such as yours or knows anyone who has, not everyone that posts here knows what others have experienced with credit defaults or why.

The only way for me to avoid this is to avoid using their products, but they want everyone to use credit and have a score. Not as some evil plot, but because it is profitable. Their market expansion and social acceptance troubles me because I really do know that SOMETIMES we have no choice.

grokmore - 04/14/09 12:40 PM

Whether my debt has any ill effects for me, or whether it helps me to build wealth and reach other goals, depends on me - my determination, my willpower, my research.

That is a marketing statement and not an absolute truth for you or anyone else.

eng_steve - 04/14/09 12:45 PM

I just want to say, that after next month. I will be virtually debt free exept for the house and a student loan at a great rate.

I will have a student loan that is at 3.65% (closer to 3% if taxes are considered) and I have the money in the bank to pay it off. I do not plan to pay it off because of the student loan benefits. If something happens to me it is forgiven, and if I loose my job I can get a forbearence. I actually figure over the next 8 years, I can earn more interest than what I pay on that amount. I just need online savings accounts to rise again above 3.65%.

I also have a house with a total payment $530 a month, (I could not rent for that) and the total amount of the loan is 70% of the houses value. I am very excited.

grokmore - 04/14/09 12:48 PM

I only smoke a little, or at social gatherings, or when conducting business with other smokers, or to celebrate, with a drink, with coffee, I'll cut back next week or month, there is too much going on now to quit. Sound familiar. It's called denial. Denial because the addiction is stronger.

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 12:51 PM

grok - (and all) - thanks for the sympathies....it was a difficult situation, but it is now past.

i was just using my personal experience to make a point...that a blanket statement such as 'everyone can live wherever they want' isn't a true statement. i don't like blanket statements and therefore end up arguing them! (i should have been a lawyer!)

Unfortunately, we have a group of corporations that score the value of people without distinction of whether the scored has an unavoidable experience or a self-inflected experience. The score is based on a history of experience used to factor a predictability model. The accuracy of data is questionable as well.

Not as some evil plot, but because it is profitable.

agreed. and agreed.

but i think the solution to the issue is people learning to take responsibility - for their own actions or even for those that happen to them and are unavoidable. it's still your own life. i don't think that avoiding credit altogether is a viable solution -- and i would say that some level of debt in society is acceptable.

that could be just me, though....as you all know, i work for a cc company...so SPEND!!!!!!!!!! (oh yeah, but pay us back...preferably after racking up some interest charges and fees....)

Honeylioness - 04/14/09 12:52 PM

I am not a regular poster on the YM board but having read the responses to the author’s initial premise I wanted to offer up my two cents.

Several posters have touched on the idea that what a person’s “wants” intellectually or knows to be the best option – be it getting out of debt, losing weight or stop smoking – is not necessarily mirrored in their behavior or habits. And unfortunately until such time as the consequences of that habit become untenable they will never be able to accept that their reality must change in order to accommodate their new circumstances.

I have often seen, much to my dismay, other posters on the YM board make snide or derogatory comments about people who cut back on small items – as though they were someone delusional for thinking it would make any difference.

However, a family that has become so entrenched in the Credit Hamster Wheel has to start small and work their way up to larger more meaningful goals. Just as we would neither expect, not accept as healthy, that someone who needs to lose 50 pounds drop 15-20 of that the first week – why is there a prevailing derision of trying to help people take small steps before asking them to do a marathon?

I think this “All or Nothing” projection is what keeps many feeling they can do nothing so why even bother?

Added to this is the bombardment of advertising we are all subject to every day in all mediums. This just feeds into a rather disturbing trend I have noticed for about 20 years that the media is only now really mentioning – the sense of Entitlement which too many in this country, and abroad, seem to have. The concept that even though they cannot afford an item or experience – they someone “deserve” it anyway. After all, that tree canopy trip to Costa Rica will ONLY cost them $75 a month to their credit card company.

It saddens me to see people in my neighborhood, work place, and even church not only still try to “Keep up with the Joneses” but are actually making decisions based on “what the neighbors/co-workers will think”. It makes me feel like a real dinosaur. My only debt is the mortgage, I drive a 17 year old truck because it still runs well and has very low maintenance costs, I mend and repair what I can before tossing it for new, I may have spent $200 on a winter coat – but it has lasted me for going on five years now. And IF any of my neighbors get together over the back fence to gossip about my vehicle, clothes, working garden, lack of satellite dish – why would I give a rat’s behind?

Tryingtobefrugal1 - 04/14/09 12:52 PM

I will discuss this together. Houses create wealth by lowering you cost of living compaired to renting. Especially over your lifetime. Over time rent goes up, interest payments go down. You should own a home when your interest + insurance + taxes = rent, if you choose greater than that it is for lifestyle choices. If you evaluate over longer periods of time initual interest payments can be higher than renting.
When compairing you really do not get a tax benefit from either paying off your debt or not. The reason is you if you have 500k in the bank earning 3%, = 15K, the 450K mortgate is at 5% = 22.5k. More than likely you get the mortgage interest deduction for 12-20k (some of your interest is likely to be included in your standard deduction). You have to pay taxes on your earnings, this will offset most of the home mortgage interest deduction. Assumint 20K is taken off for the deduction -22.5k+15k+(20k-15K)*.25= -6.25 k in interest you paid. zero mortgage you pay zero in interest but earn 50k*.03=1.5K.
You do not pay taxes on interest you do not pay, but give the pollitions time they will come up with something.

You took my post about renting vs. buying far too literal. That was after some poster was taking a simple example and making it complicated by saying he'd buy a house for 1/3 the cost instead. I replied that if he's that concerned about letting go of money he should just rent.

By the way, the example you gave there makes absolutely no sense. And I don't just mean that it doesn't make sense because your post is confusing, I mean the logic makes no sense. Taxes on the earnings? You're not paying taxes on something you're deducting from your income i.e. mortgage interest. You are paying taxes in interest your earn through your investments. Even if it's close, the guy with the mortgage and $450k in the bank has a better liquidity position than the guy with $50k and no mortgage.

grokmore - 04/14/09 01:22 PM

do you still think i have a choice on where i lived?

but i think the solution to the issue is people learning to take responsibility - for their own actions or even for those that happen to them and are unavoidable. it's still your own life. i don't think that avoiding credit altogether is a viable solution -- and i would say that some level of debt in society is acceptable.

DisappointedSick The economic collapse of western civilization is unavoidable at the level of borrowing we as a society are perpetuating. As Honeyless said, "It has to start somewhere." I can avoid credit completely, so I will. There are even more that cannot avoid credit that really should. And shame on CC companies for what they have done to the American consumer and the economy.

As an employee of the industry, I would not expect you to be able to consider avoiding credit to be a viable solution, and naturally you would believe that some level of debt beyond emergencies is acceptable. I would not expect a cigar shop employee to agree with an anti-smoking post, either.

My tacking with the blanket statement was to make a point which maybe it did with some readers, but I can see it was totally wasted on you -- your lack of choice was outside of your control, but everyone else's is because of a lack of responsibility. My apologizes for wasting your time.

eng_steve - 04/14/09 01:28 PM

By the way, the example you gave there makes absolutely no sense. And I don't just mean that it doesn't make sense because your post is confusing, I mean the logic makes no sense. Taxes on the earnings? You're not paying taxes on something you're deducting from your income i.e. mortgage interest. You are paying taxes in interest your earn through your investments. Even if it's close, the guy with the mortgage and $450k in the bank has a better liquidity position than the guy with $50k and no mortgage.

I believe it makes perfect since and is the correct mathmatical evaluation. I believe I did not spell out a step that got you lost.

What I did was Interest out = -22.5k Interest on mortgage + 20 k * .25 times tax rate. Interest in = 15k (earnings)-15K*.25 tax rate. I added this together. Your net interest is -6.25K.

For your senerio #2 your net interes is just 50k *.03 -50*.03*.25=$1225 ( I did forget the tax on the 50K)

Liquidy is important, but so is cash flow. The guy with 50K and no mortgage has a much better cash flow. It would probable be best to pay it off over time.

The reason paying off your mortgage is you do not pay taxes on interest you do not pay. A penny saved is a penny earned, interest saved is interest earned. However in our system you do not have to pay taxes on interest saved.

mwz_2410 - 04/14/09 01:31 PM

My apologizes for wasting your time

don't be silly! i enjoyed this discussion! and actually, i would consider avoiding credit card debt to be a viable solution. but while it still exists, and i'm still employed, i won't feel (too) guilty about my paycheck!

i just think that some types of debt -- such as (reasonable) student loans and mortgages are not inherently bad when done 'responsibly'. just a difference of opinion. it's ok!

ef_suffolks - 04/14/09 01:34 PM

Do you think that most people actually want to pay off their debts?

I gotta be honest...

I want to to pay off my debts but i'm in no real hurry to do it

[Honeylioness]

Honeylioness - 04/16/09 07:09 PM


GIN - you may already have this poem, but in case not I wanted to share this with you and all the others who have adored "children with fur"

Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.

When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge.

There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together.

There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.

All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor; those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by.

The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.

They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent; His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.

You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again.

The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.

Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together....

Author unknown...

[Honeylioness]

Home buying Advice

Tan24 - 04/16/09 05:20 PM

I'm in the process of buying my first home and just had the home inspection. The listing for the home said, and I quote, "New everything: Main & Upper Master Suites w/ private deck and french doors. New electrical, siding, roof, 2 car garage, appliances, granite counter, carpet, tile, lighting." It's a 100 year old home that has recently been renovated.

Now comes the inspection report...

• The electrical is not new, in fact, it is likely the original wiring from when the house was built and is no longer up to code.
  
• There was a kitchen addition, from the owner prior to the current owner, and it isn't supported correctly. You have to climb into a crawl space to see this, but apparently the beam that's supporting it now is sagging and the correct support needs to be added or the "brand new" kitchen tiles can start to crack.
  
• The roof on top of the kitchen addition is a flat roof and is not new (the roof on the rest of the house is new, just not on this part of the house) and was improperly installed, once again, this roof was done prior to the current owner but he should have seen that it wasn't done properly when he re-did the rest of the roof. It's the wrong kind of roofing and there are nails and nail holes that weren't sealed, so there has been some water damage.
  
• There's a new ceiling in the kitchen which tells me they knew about the leakage issues and instead of fixing the roof put up a new ceiling. Also, there are some water spots in the bathroom that's part of this addition.
  
• The water heater is 9 years old and leaking (with an expected life of 8-10 years), but to be fair, they never said they put in a new water heater.
  
• The water heater flue discharges into a chimney flue that is shared by the furnace and fireplace.
  
• Improper "S" traps were installed on the first floor bathroom and kitchen.
  
• The attic isn't insulated and the bathroom fans and the plumbing vent discharge into the attic.

Overall, there are a lot of things wrong with the house, this is only a partial list.

What I want to know is what would you do if you were me? Would you be comfortable asking the seller to fix everything if you required licensed plumbers, electricians, etc. to do the work and required copies of all invoices and receipts, etc. so you had proof of who did the work? Or would you feel like you couldn't trust the quality of the work that's been done so far and just walk away?

On one hand I don't want a buy a money pit and don't want to feel like I rushed into buying a house that wasn't quality. On the other hand the houses that we've been interested in are older homes and maybe there are some things that I'm being unrealistic about, i.e. expecting the home to be perfect. I don't really expect the home to be perfect, but buying a home that was purchased purely to fix up and resell, as this one was by the seller, I did expect it to not have any major issues (such as water damage, electrical, support, roofing, etc.). I just want to know what I should reasonably expect to find in an older home and what I shouldn't compromise on. Any advice you can give me would be greatly appreciated.


Tan24 - 04/16/09 06:12 PM

Our budget is $150K (the accepted offer for this house is $147K) and the house is located in Indianapolis, IN. As for what the condition for other homes are, it's all over the place. There are newer houses in subdivisions (which would likely be in much better condition, but wouldn't have the character of an older home), there are older homes that have been renovated and then there are foreclosures that need a ton of work. There are literally hundreds of homes for sale, so I have no doubt that we could find something with less issues.

Comparitively, I feel like this home is priced on the higher end, not the lower as was suggested, for the area and given all the issues it has it won't sell for the price it's listed at without the issues being fixed.

If I looked at the house today, knowing all of the issues, I wouldn't even flinch at the thought of walking away. Really, it's my fiance who's hung up on the house and doesn't want to let it go without seeing if the problems can be fixed. We are going to talk to his uncle today (who owns a construction company) and my feeling is that he'll tell us to walk away. Unfortunately his uncle can't look at the house because we currently live in San Diego and are relocating to Indianapolis.

We did get our own home inspection, the seller didn't pay for it. Based on the laundry of items that need to be fixed I definitely feel that the inspector was quite thorough. However, I definitely know that there may be problems that he just couldn't see. Who knows what's behind the walls or under the floors.

Knob and tube is exactly what the wiring is so if we couldn't even get homeowner's insurance based on that, that's good to know. However, if he won't fix the big issues on this house we're not even willing to consider it.

We do not have the ability to fix this many issues and the price of the home definitely does not reflect all of the work that needs to be done. As I stated in my original post they touted this home as everything being new. We don't have estimates as to what the work will cost, but I'm hoping my fiance's uncle will be able to give us an idea.

The responses I'm getting from you all are pretty what I was feeling, to walk away. I just wanted to see what other people would have to say. I'd love to hear any additional advice anyone might have. Keep it coming.


Tan24 - 04/16/09 06:54 PM

- The water heater flue discharges into a chimney flue that is shared by the furnace and fireplace.

Honestly, I don't know what the issue is with this either. I'm not familiar at all with a lot of the issues with the home (don't know a lot of the terminology or what is and isn't a big problem - another issue with buying a home with problems as a first time home buyer). This is just an issue the inspector put on the report that sounded like a major issue, so I listed it here. God that makes me sound stupid, but I'm just being honest.

I'm as unknowledgeable as can be when it comes to the issues with this (or any) home. I'm first time buyer and I just don't have any experience with any type of home repair, which is why I'm seeking advice from as many sources as possible. Not having the background knowledge I'm not able to make this decision without other people's input, so I'm doing what I can to get as much info as I can.


Honeylioness - 04/17/09 08:49 AM

Having grown up with a grandfather who was a general contractor AND having lived in some really old houses here in New England I am going to chime in here:

- The water heater flue discharges into a chimney flue that is shared by the furnace and fireplace.

This is actually a real problem. Water heater discharge is not a dry vapor but a wet one. Long term exposure to moisture will degrade and eat away at the chimney flue. Once that happens than carbon monoxide from the furnace seeps into the walls and through out the house. NOT good. Add to that the kreosote from the fireplace and it is just asking for trouble.

Some knob and tube wiring will last a very long time - however if you plan on using the existing wires to run more than one television set, computer, printer, router, microwave and other electrical devices the wires are most likely not able to handle that capacity. The other issue is that without a properly grounded circuit breaker box, which it sounds as though this house may not have, you do not just fry one circuit or room - but the entire house if it overloads. Consider also that most old wiring is wrapped in treated linen and when you remove the face plates from the sockets you will see they are most likely NOT grounded. A dangerous combination in my opinion.

The biggest red flag for me though is the initial listing. Either the current owner - or the Real Estate agent LIED. Possibly to just move this place. That right there gives you the freedom to walk away.

The most expensive project though is the replacement of the kitchen's support beam. For a 100+ year old house this is not usually just a matter of butting up to the existing beam to strengthen it. My best guess is that there is not a proper basement which means no retaining wall underneath the load bearing walls of the house. The kitchen area will need to be jacked up with huge hydrolic equipment. If the foundation is field stone, as many old houses are, it will have to be dug out and replaced with a new ledge to support the new structural beam. Lifting the house will cause cracks in the original plaster walls either above the kitchen if there is a second story or in the adjoining rooms.

Once a new foundation is built they will have to dig under the house and pour concrete footings for the beam if it is longer than a specific code allows. Then the beam has to be tied back into the existing structure. Bear in mind that when this work starts they may discover other problems - another rotted timber in a load bearing wall, insect damage, a water table that is too high to deal with the footings.

I also am more than a little confused about a 100+ year old house with a flat roof. (ETA - I see now this is only for the new kitchen addition) I am not sure I have ever seen such a thing as "original". Especially not in Indiana. The original builder would have known that a pitched roof is necessary to shed the snow load. In that part of the country I think you are asking for trouble with a flat roof and if it were me I would get the roof re-framed to allow for at LEAST a 15 degree pitch - more would be better.

You said that it is your fiance who is all gung-ho for this place. He needs to consider just what this is going to cost you in terms of time AND money.

* Can you afford an additional $100K + to fix all these items on top of the sale price?
* Where will you live while this work is being done - because you can NOT live there while the house is up on jacks.
* Can you afford to pay rent for 6 months (or more) on another place while still paying the mortgage?
* What if he waits and finds out AFTER the sale that you cannot get insurance?
* Is your fiance very handy with tools and home improvement that he can replace the wiring himself. (which I do not recommend for a whole house as you still will need an inspection and approval before getting the home insurance)

Especially as first time buyers my gut instinct is to RUN from this deal. This is why they tell you to NEVER fall in love with a place until after you sign the papers.

Good luck to you



Honeylioness - 04/17/09 10:25 AM

- The attic isn't insulated and the bathroom fans and the plumbing vent discharge into the attic.

Sorry to sound like the voice of doom and gloom but this is another big red flag for me. Having lived in a turn of the century two family before with an uninsulated attic I can tell you that you will find yourself paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars monthly to keep the house at a comfortable temperature in the winter and basically all that money will just be going to melt the snow on the roof and cause ice dams which can be very damaging to the eaves and shingles.

Plumbing vents are designed for two purposes:

1. Allow water to drain properly. By getting air into the system it provides a barometric pressure that helps drains clear properly and toilets flush. When you have a problem with drains acting funny it can often be because the vent gets clogged with falling leaves or pine needles.

2. They all for a safe release of gases. Properly installed vents tie not only into the waste pipes for sinks and washing machines - but for the toilets also. The vents are meant to be run to the OUTSIDE of a structure to allow the safe release of any sewer or septic system gases. Something you really don't want to be building up inside your home.

The bathroom fan should also not be vent into the attic but outside the building. Otherwise you are blowing warm moist air into a semi-enclosed space. That fact that it is currently not insulated may have helped in a weird way thus far.

In the winter that moist air will freeze on the underside of the roof sheeting and/or fall and condense on the sheeting above your ceilings. When it melts then you have standing moisture that will deteriorate the wood. In the summer it now becomes a breeding ground for mold and mildew - not only damaging to the wood but if it gets a good hold the spores can enter the house and cause health issues.

Did I mention that if it were me I would be RUNNING away from this property?

[Honeylioness]

red_wagon - 04/16/09 10:26 PM

Just had a long conversation with my BFF from home. She feels guilty for doubting whether she wants to marry her DBF based on the fact that he has zero motivation and works a going-nowhere job (his fifth in a year). But he's sweet and funny and smart! But she wants a family, and doesn't know if he can help her get there. She feels like his mother half the time. etc etc. I told her it's okay to factor in financial type things and that she SHOULD otherwise she'll end up miserable. And that she and her DBF need to sit down to have a conversation about goals and wants and to plot out what they can do to get there, if they are on the same page. Two years ago I might have said, "Oh just marry him and make babies and worry about the rest later!" hehe.


Honeylioness - 04/17/09 12:30 PM

Red (3) – About your BFF and her BF: One thing to remember is that during the dating and engagement phase most people are on their “best” and most conscientious behavior and ways of living. Women especially are guilty of thinking that they can change what bothers them about their men after the wedding – Never Gonna Happen. She also needs someone with whom she feels like a partner with, not a parent. Trust me, that role will get very old very fast and the amount of resentment that will build up will be an ugly thing.

I see Marriage as a legal, emotional, financial, and spiritual contract. Just as I would not buy a car just because it’s green or cute or “has potential” neither do I think we should choose our lifetime mates without checking them out at least as much as we would a vehicle:

• Really look under the hood. How much monthly maintenance will he need and can you afford to pay for it?
  
• Is he a nice solid domestic model that you can easily get parts for, or a temperamental foreign model?
  
• Take them for an extended test drive – not just along the pretty tree lined country road, but off road and along tough streets.
  
• Does he shut down and refuse to start again after he hits the first pothole?
  
• What is his service schedule? Does he have providers in place to help him deal with loss or stress? (I.e. close family, friends, counselor).
  
• Does he get regular tune-ups (doctor, dentist, etc.) or just think he can run his machine into the ground with no worries?
  
• Can he hug the curves or will he lose control in the first turn?
  
• Does he start easily on a cold morning?
  
• How many previous owners has he had?
  
• Do you know his prior “accident” rate? What about speeding? Is he likely to commit a lot of moving violations? (i.e. flirting with other women, too much drinking/partying, history of getting fired, multiple child support payments)
  
• How much noise does he make while … ummm…. “running”?
  
• Is he an Alpha Romeo (all flash and good looks with a poor long term performance record) or a Subaru Wagon (not as flashy but a good solid performer and family friendly that will give faithful service for decades)
  
• How much do you care about what other people think about what you ….. “drive”
  
• Does he have good maneuverability or does he only perform well along the same old straight line path?

red_wagon - 04/17/09 12:36 PM

Honeylioness - you absolutely crack me up. I'm going to have to forward that to BFF hehe. Especially love the "Does he start easily on a cold morning?" hehe. One of them popped out at me for blue - the regular tune-ups. He avoids doctors and dentists like the plague and he really shouldn't due to family history. Though, he is trying to lose weight and be healthier, so that's a step. But definitly a good list for BFF to look over. I just fear it's going to mean the end of her relationship and she has such a hard time getting out there to meet anyone. sigh. And again, she's far away so I can't help easily. Thank you also for your words of comfort regarding DSM. And for the apartment advice. That might be the route we take. Going to call my stepdad tonight to see what he thinks.

All, thanks again. I feel better today, better able to tackle this. Realizing it's okay to cry sometimes.

[Honeylioness]

Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 04/20/09 11:55 AM

smartstart, You could never be a pansy, LOL. I see you as...if you were a flower...a tall sunflower reaching for the sun, shading what needs to be shaded, feeding what needs to be fed, and giving the rest of us a "Oh wow!" moment as we look across the fields and see you head and shoulders above the rest. Star


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 04/20/09 12:02 PM

Flowers...how do the rest of you see yourselves?

beej, I always think of your hollyhocks, so beautiful and so unusually vivid.

I would chose a geranium for myself because I love red, pink, coral,I love the full sun, I don't like frost.

teh mom, are you like your irises?


reeneejune - 04/20/09 04:16 PM

Flowers - someone asked if you were a flower, what type would you be. Um, a marigold? Not for the color or anything, but because no matter what you do to them or how often you step on them they will...not...die! LOL.


newhomeowner ND - 04/20/09 10:44 PM

My favorite flower is the gardenia, but I've not been feeling very 'gardenia-like' lately. The only flower I could associate myself with would be some kind of leafy potted plant that blooms once every couple of years. People remember that at one time the plant was beautiful, but right now it just seems kind of plain and boring. But it is still green and still alive, and there is hope for the future that at some point the plant will bloom again. That is me in a nutshell.


Honeylioness - 04/21/09 10:40 AM

Sharing - What kind of flower do I see myself as? What are you trying to do to me? An animal I could tell you, a color - sure, a type of music - probably .... but a flower? ...OY....I need more coffee. Probably some kind of wildflower - the sort with a flower that when you are going by it you don't really notice, but if you take the time to stop and really look at it you find it is really rather pretty.

[Honeylioness]

Honeylioness - 04/21/09 01:08 PM

Last week you may remember my mother was sent the link to my home page of ramblings and I had to tell her about Hawk before she read it unprepared.

Anyway, she called me Saturday afternoon. Not an unusual occurrence as we talk several times a week. But when your mother says "I want to ask you something, and not just as your mother" ... Well, it helps to be sitting down. What she said to me was "So, what are you going to do to mark this new phase of your life?" I thought she was kidding, and then she suggested dying my hair blond. AACCKKKKK - I don't think so. But it has got me thinking. Should I do something - and if so - what?

Honeylioness - 04/21/09 09:29 PM

Just a quick drive-by...... thanks for the suggestions about "doing something new" to mark this transition .... However:

• Tattoo - I already have one of these on my right hip. I had toyed with the idea of getting a second one but you can't really find a decent place in Mass. and not sure what I would even get.
  
• Piercing - Let's see, I have three in each ear so I am done there. And well ..... I am not really interested in having ummm..."other" parts of my body pierced
  
• Nails - been there done that with the acrylic things. Took me months and months for my nails to recover and re-grow after I stopped using them after two years. Side note - it was pretty expensive to go twice a month for touch ups.
  
• Not sure I will be able to grow another few inches taller so that's out.
  
• Hair - Hmmmmmm. This is one of my real "hot buttons". See, the last time I had any length cut off my hair was 10 years ago, and I thought it would be a trim and he took off 3 inches. I cried for two weeks. Since then I do my own trims and have only let one person near me with scissors in the last five years. Unfortunately my dumb hair has reached it's genetic set point - which b*ites as I would love to have it down to my hips. So not sure a new "style" is in the cards.

Guess I need to think about it more.


GLDNLUVLY – 04/22/09 09:02 AM


Honey-Sapphire is right. Not all hairdressers are the same. Also, take pictures of styles that you like so they have a visual. What is your first tattoo of? I think that you should design your own quilted heart w/a needle and thread sticking out and under it have Big Bad Quilting Mama in script.


Honeylioness - 04/22/09 01:58 PM

GLDNLUVLY – My tattoo is a rose done in three shades of purple and lavender with white highlights on a slightly curved stem with thorns and a small bud. The entire thing is only about two inches high. I have been considering another actually. Either a small bumblebee next to the rose, or a celtic knot design on the other hip. Like this:

or


Honeylioness - 04/22/09 02:09 PM

"....I think that you should design your own quilted heart w/a needle and thread sticking out and under it have Big Bad Quilting Mama in script...."

I told my BFF and my DOM about this idea today and they both howled. Then DOM got all serious on me and said she was not really serious about the blond thing – what she really wants me to consider is going back to night school and finishing my Bachelor’s degree. I left college in 1986 just 30 credits shy of my degree because I thought I would work, save money, go back and finish. Yeah right, but at the time I was appalled at getting student loans for the couple of thousand I would have needed to finish. Ah well, hindsight is 20/20 and almost always masochistic.

Now for a short rant or pout, not really sure which. Since 1998 I have volunteered at a historic estate called Gore Place The first event of the year, and the biggest one in terms of attendance and funds is their annual Sheepshearing Festival which is always the last Saturday of April. I have worked this event every year – rain, heat, bitter cold, mud and bugs. Last year I had not heard from the staff as the festival approached so I sent them an e-mail two weeks before hand asking if they still needed volunteers. I got a cordial reply, my duty assignment and spent the day doing what I do.

This year, the festival is this coming Saturday – just 3 days from now. And again, not a WORD from the estate. No regular mail a month in advance asking for help, no e-mail, no phone call – nothing. And on top of that I was not called on even once last year at all to help with any of the other events like the big Holiday Open House for which they are short volunteers every year. I must admit my feelings are a bit hurt. If they don’t want my help anymore – just TELL me.

It’s going to be weird not attending this year – and missing the vendor with the most incredible fudge (MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Chocolate Raspberry or Chocolate Amaretto) However my BFF said she is going, and yes it is weird I was not asked to help as the weather is going to be perfect and I am sure they will be swamped again this year. But she did say she would get me my fudge – so that is good.

So here I am thinking “This is going to be hard, not working the Sheepshearing – what am I going to DO this Saturday” Then out of the blue – well, okay … out of my e-mail inbox …. came a reminder notice from a Guild member about the New England Quilt Museum Text and Textile Extravaganza on Saturday.

All you fabric and craft ladies …. Are you sitting down? Ah hem – from the website and I quote:

"The Museum is hosting its popular book and fabric fundraiser for the fifth year! In exchange for a $25.00 donation, participants receive one shopping bag to fill to the brim with assorted books, magazines and fabrics. Fabrics range in size from samples to fat quarters to yardage for borders and backing and designs include batiks, floral, novelties, reproductions, and solids. Get a second shopping bag for an additional $25.00 donation. The proceeds from the event help to support the Museum’s educational programs and partnerships in the community.

Merchandise is unpacked throughout the day and every box had its own surprises. So, if you cannot be at the museum when the doors open, be assured bargains and treasures will appear throughout the day! "

MWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA

I think I have discovered what I will be doing this Saturday !!!!!!!


SES_Books - 04/22/09 02:21 PM

Honey--That is unbelievable. Usually places like that are crying for volunteers. Did the director or activities coordinator change? Looks beautiful from your link. I imagine it would be a great place to visit.

I agree with your mother. Living in the epicenter of higher education you should at least check on what completing your degree would involve. Some business have programs that assist employees with schooling. As a nontraditional student you might find some aid. Many upper level courses are on line and pretty much at your own pace. Try one evening class before deciding against it. You are such a sharp, organized and aware woman I think you could do it easily. I can understand the hesitation of giving up a job to go back full time, especially now. Thumbs up to Mom.


kath74 - 04/22/09 03:14 PM

honey - gasp! fill a bag for $25?!!!! oh my gosh. I'm salivating just thinking about that!


Sharing the Simple Lifestyle - 04/22/09 04:26 PM

Honey, Mauuaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa​aaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh! indeed! Girl, you're livin' right! The universe has your number on speed dial. Oh, so, so, so, so, so, so jelly. Oh man..........

Loved the celtic ring thing. I see you as an eternal circle sort of woman anyhow; holistic, a blend of cultural beliefs and values, intricate, encircling as in nurturing arms around.


GLDNLUVLY - 04/22/09 05:21 PM

Honey-I still say that you should get the heart. And why were they laughing? You can put that heart inside the celtic knot.


Honeylioness - 04/27/09 09:51 AM

beej - I can relate to the "where do I meet people? (aka men)" angst. Before Hawk I had not dated in eight years. We did meet online, but through a mutual interest chat site. I have used e harmony in the past, the only problem I seemed to have with it is that living in Mass. most of the men I met and had things in common with, good conversation etc. seemed to all be in the Midwest or South and I was not sure I wanted to live in either place. Plus not being able to spend real face to face time with them made it harder to determine if this was really a good match. However, I would, and do, still recommend it for people I know who are serious about trying to find a long term mate or companion. Not everyone there either wants to get married again or have more children. So you can filter out those dying to procreate.

calsfan - As to my "list" of requirements in a mate they are:

1) Male
2) Proper sense of humor (no racial or ethnic put downs)
3) Believer / Christian
4) Can hold down a steady job
5) Wants children
6) Strong integrity/trustworthy
7) Thinks I am amazing
8) Is nice to animals and the elderly
9) Not a picky eater
10) Not a spendthrift

calsfan/Sheila - I would trade in almost the entire side of my father's family for a puppy if I could. Partly because I know so few of them, and the ones I do know or know of - well let's just say it is a wonder they do not all have six fingers and extra toes. Jeff Foxworthy MUST have met them which is why his "Redneck" jokes make me laugh and cringe at the same time.

red_wagon - Oh BOY what a GREAT weekend to be in Boston!!! LMAO - poor poor blue (NOT!) I swear, the Yankee's pitching rotation looks just dreadful and completely out of steam and it is only the end of April! And last night - I was screaming my head off. Did you SEE that play by my boy Jacoby? nutsE that boy can MOVE!!!!! Most audacious thing I have seen in years.

For those who don't know - Jacoby Ellsbury stole HOME plate with a batter up just as the pitch was thrown in the fifth inning. This just NEVER happens! It was a thing of beauty. Add to that the Sox won all three games at home against the Evil Empire and it was a beautiful weekend.

Speaking of weather - it was over 80 on Saturday - too much too quick in my opinion. I had planned on doing some work in the garden but did not want to wind up looking like "Lobster Girl" so I passed.

Fabric ladies - So I did go over to the Text & Textile sale at the quilt museum Saturday morning. What a crush! And for those who think quilters are meek mild little old ladies rocking on the porch - they should have seen the feeding frenzy as things were pulled from boxes and tables replenished. I have seen more restraint and courtesy out of lions being thrown steer haunches at the zoo! Especially three in particular who would NOT make room for anyone else to even see that section of tables and were grabbing from the workers before they could even set things down.

However, I did manage to snag enough to fill my bag to bursting. Four books, eighteen magazines (including some great vintage QNMs), and about 14 yards of fabric. All the items for this sale come from donations made to the museum over the year. So if someone dies or goes into a nursing home, or just gets tired of certain fabric they know they will not use again they can donate it. There is a large variety from fleece to wool to brocades to calicos to batiks. One of the pieces I got was a little over four yards of a Ginny Byer in deep blues and purples - great for either a backing or borders. I also got Christmas prints, some cute prints for charity quilts (including a dragon dressed as a chef "broiling" things with his breath), two yards of a lovely chintz, some conversational prints, and a couple of pieces of large yardage in greens and pinks.


Red2Black2011 - 04/27/09 10:30 AM

Honey: Thanks for the mate checklist. Have you thought of writing a checklist for life book.


Honeylioness - 04/27/09 12:54 PM

Steam mops - Hmmm.....I think I will be using all you ladies out there as my testers. I really like the idea of reducing chemicals and not having to scrub on my hands and knees. Any feelings about models to avoid?

Las Vegas - Are we definite for the weekend of October 16th? .... If so I will live, just had hoped to combine two events into the same weekend.

I am really having a hard time today at work as I am worried spitless about some friends of mine today. While I am not at liberty to divulge their specific circumstances I would be grateful for any prayers etc for Theda and Damien today as they are in court - and that the judge will not rule based on perception or emotions - but only on the facts.

[Honeylioness]

Honeylioness - 04/23/09 10:59 AM

teh mom - I loved the ".....Earth Day….hmmm……that’s the day we cut down a tree and burn it right?...." I can be very UN-PC at times and this is just the sort of thing I might have said.

Not to say we should not all be aware of how our choices effect those around us and the planet - but we should be grouping together to put more political and financial pressure on the large industries that create most of the problems.

Force auto manufacturers to increase fuel efficiency and reduce output, and start re-training workers now to move from working on the rigs to maintaining wind farms. Because it's not a matter of IF we run out of decayed dinosaurs to burn - but WHEN.

teh mom (2) - GGRRRRRRRRRRR MumbleMumbleMumbleMu​mble. Sorry my fanny - rubbing it in that you have flowering squash already and I won't be able to even plant tomato seedlings for another month *POUT*

GLDNLUVLY - They were laughing at the "Big Bad Quilting Mama" phrase mostly. See, my next door neighbors are really into their Harleys and do several major rides each year including the rally in Washington DC each Spring. Most of the people in the neighbor hood are afraid of them since they look tough, have tattoos, he is ex-Marine and a black belt with a shaved head and she can make a sailor blush with her language at times. But they really are nice decent people and we get along incredibly well. Anyway, there is a perception in the neighborhood that they are trying to turn quiet, bookish, looks like a librarian/Sunday school teacher Me into a "Big Bad Hard A$$ Biker Mama." That's the phrase that made mom and BFF laugh.

3cats - you should be deservedly proud of yourself! Money at the ready for bills, savings AND an improved payment history. Did you even imagine six months ago that you could have turned things around so fast!!


I thought this Article was interesting
articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Banking/BetterBanking/WhatYourWalletSaysAboutYou.aspx?page=1

Though I think it is a repeat from about a year ago. It does make a lot of sense that an object such as a wallet can reflect a person's view of their money. Though the comment that really jumped out at me and describes ME pretty well was "...All of the bills in your wallet are lined up from largest denomination to smallest (or vice versa)...Taken to the extreme ... having all the dead presidents right-side up and facing the same way in order of date, for example...might mean you 'could have a problem allocating enough money toward fun'..."

[Honeylioness]

Final update for April:

28/25 NEO
26/20 CS/NS


Goals for May:

25 NEO
20 CS/NS
31 NKB or CW (No killing boss or co-workers)
31 NCMTSOH (No crying myself to sleep over Hawk)

[Honeylioness]

Honeylioness - 04/09/09 04:31 PM

Sharing - okay, your observation yesterday about the neighbor's dog really stuck with me. So in honor of Betty the Pooch I present the following:

Set to Manfred Mann's Do Wah Diddy Diddy

There it was just a-lopin' down the street, with a tail a’waggin’ and a tongue hanging long
Sniffin' at the drifts and watchin’ for somethin’ to chase, with tail a’waggin’ and a tongue hanging long
It’s snow white (snow white), with brown spots (brown spots)
It’s snow white with brown spots and I thought my mind was lost

When I saw it passin’ past my little side window, with tail a’waggin’ and a tongue hanging long
But for those spots I’d have never seen it go, with tail a’waggin’ and a tongue hanging long
Those spots danced (spots danced), I was agog (was agog)
Those spots danced, I was agog, barely saw it was a dog

SES_Books - 04/09/09 04:42 PM

Honey--- YOU Rock!

Red2Black2011 - 04/09/09 04:44 PM

Honey: Thats awesome!!